suomipeli

Now opened the save and yeah, worker is just in time to build the road 1E of cap. It wasted 3 precious worker turns though. Robert, this early micro is very important to get right. Later on it will be much less so. There is no time for something of secondary importance like roading to a sheep. We won't need that :health: for a long long time.

Sorry if I'm being a bit of a beyotch here, but also losing that warrior was unnecessary. When possible, move along the forest to protect from animals. When possible, move to a hill for better view. When those two are not possible, move along the coast, or find another, safe route. Don't be afraid of losing some turns doing that. Don't die, dying is bad.
 
What the... Can I really change a unit/building in the build queue without losing the progress to the stuff I was building before the change? I didn't even now that its possible!! Well, that's the 1st thing I learnt here :)! Sorry for being screw up :)!
 
What the... Can I really change a unit/building in the build queue without losing the progress to the stuff I was building before the change? I didn't even now that its possible!! Well, that's the 1st thing I learnt here :)! Sorry for being screw up :)!
:lol:
 
Now opened the save and yeah, worker is just in time to build the road 1E of cap. It wasted 3 precious worker turns though. Robert, this early micro is very important to get right. Later on it will be much less so. There is no time for something of secondary importance like roading to a sheep. We won't need that :health: for a long long time.

Sorry if I'm being a bit of a beyotch here, but also losing that warrior was unnecessary. When possible, move along the forest to protect from animals. When possible, move to a hill for better view. When those two are not possible, move along the coast, or find another, safe route. Don't be afraid of losing some turns doing that. Don't die, dying is bad.

Oh no.. Another dumm dumm point to me I suppose.. I just forgot the trade route commerce.. I tried to connect the sheep to river but the river doesn't give the money..
 
What's the matter guys? This place got suddenly so deserted that I'm afraid that here is some kind of global warming going on..
 
I recreated our start in world builder to see how it would the second city would come out if we had started the settler at size 2. I settled the second city at turn 31 and had already built one cottage that it could share with the capitol and was 3 turns aways from the second cottage. At this point I was 3 turns away from writing with 12 :beakers: per turn at break even research of 80 %.

Spoiler :
JpW4gXv.jpg


IMHO this would have been a better start but it is always easy to analyze things later.

I actually made a mistake when I complained about roading to the second city. Roads are not necessary for the trade routes since the cities are connected with the river (could have sworn that this required Sailing).
 

Attachments

What's the matter guys? This place got suddenly so deserted that I'm afraid that here is some kind of global warming going on..

As I said in the op I cant play during weekend (Im writimg this with cell phone) and now would be my turn. However I can form some kind of ppp (though I cant check the save).

So I'll go on with wri-alpha and found our 2nd city in mansas direction (or did rob found it yet?). Worker should cottage the 2nd city. I think Ill build gra in the 2nd city. Not sure what to build in the cap, without looking the save. We'll need a worker but perhaps not immediately. Perhaps additional warrior to fogbust or provide happiness. Settler at size 5 could be good.

I might steal a worker from mansa if opportunity arises and if we intend to elepult him(Im in favor, but need to check his land). Got to watch out for wandering skirmishers. Mansa has low attacl prob right? So stealing from him would be safe.
 
Okay, I agree your plans, except that we are researching alpha already so make a tech plan please. We were planning to trade writing/alpha for masonry/meditation/priesthood and get Oracle out fast (Currency bulb w/ Oracle). What we'll do after that?
 
Well, that depends a lot on tech trading. We'll need to get mining to trade for bw and masonry. If the gold-fish-ivory site is our 3rd city, it needs fishing. Basically I'll tech something we need and can't trade.
 
I forgot something in my ppp- the oracle! Two-pop whipping a worker into oracle and then chopping the rest of it could be the way to go. And tech should be priesthood, if we can trade for it, it will be too late.

Edit. possible worker steal has to be after tech trading.
 
I forgot something in my ppp- the oracle! Two-pop whipping a worker into oracle and then chopping the rest of it could be the way to go. And tech should be priesthood, if we can trade for it, it will be too late.

Edit. possible worker steal has to be after tech trading.

Agree with this. Oracle is 150 :hammers: so after the overflow maybe 3/4 forests are required because we cannot connect marble and don't have Math yet. For a fast and a more certain oracle the forests should be pre chopped (can we spare worker turns for that?).

What tech were you planning after Alpha. Are we going to self tech any of the basic techs such as Myst/Mining/Fishing or should we go for aggressive trading and maybe even give away alpha to get as much stuff as possible. For elepult we need Math, Construction and HBR. Math can be bulbed by a GS, but the AI also favours it so it's possible to get it from trade.

I am not a big fan or worker stealing (IMHO it's a bit cheesy), but if you all want to do it then I am ok with it.
 
So I'll go on with wri-alpha and found our 2nd city in mansas direction (or did rob found it yet?). Worker should cottage the 2nd city. I think Ill build gra in the 2nd city. Not sure what to build in the cap, without looking the save. We'll need a worker but perhaps not immediately. Perhaps additional warrior to fogbust or provide happiness. Settler at size 5 could be good.
Random thoughts without opening the save:

Granary in the 2nd city is not useful for a long time (and it won't be finished before max size), so I'm suggesting warrior. City needs MP soon anyway. If capital can pump enough warriors, putting hammers into a granary (or a library?) first in the 2nd city is ok. Not sure if we should found 3rd city pre-Oracle. We need workers if we are chopping the Oracle. Capital should be at a size where it works all the good tiles. Is there a pressing reason to grow now?

Following two turn-sets are very important for the course of this game. No pressure. ;) I'm just saying that there is no hurry, let's not rush.
I might steal a worker from mansa if opportunity arises and if we intend to elepult him(Im in favor, but need to check his land). Got to watch out for wandering skirmishers. Mansa has low attacl prob right? So stealing from him would be safe.
Edit. possible worker steal has to be after tech trading.
Mansa is a very good target for worker steals since he WILL TRADE tech with us @annoyed. You probably meant that getting the peace might be hard - we need to look into this a bit more. Killing his scout should be enough. Stealing a worker now is much more powerful than stealing a worker after alpha.

I forgot something in my ppp- the oracle! Two-pop whipping a worker into oracle and then chopping the rest of it could be the way to go. And tech should be priesthood, if we can trade for it, it will be too late.
We would be whipping away hammer tiles though. I think it's hard to make your idea work, the whip is max 30 hammers for the oracle so it would require 6 chops. Since our cap is hammer-heavy, I thought we should slow build it with the help of some chops. Maybe if we have the workers for 6 chops your idea can work.

Agree with this. Oracle is 150 :hammers: so after the overflow maybe 3/4 forests are required because we cannot connect marble and don't have Math yet. For a fast and a more certain oracle the forests should be pre chopped (can we spare worker turns for that?).
Getting masonry (+marble online) would be very sweet, if possible.
What tech were you planning after Alpha. Are we going to self tech any of the basic techs such as Myst/Mining/Fishing or should we go for aggressive trading and maybe even give away alpha to get as much stuff as possible. For elepult we need Math, Construction and HBR. Math can be bulbed by a GS, but the AI also favours it so it's possible to get it from trade.
Right now we should focus on the Oracle (if we plan to get it! It's not too late to change our mind). What comes after it (= probably elepult) is not very important yet. It's possible that we are trying to bite off more than we can chew. I mean, Alpha is now 19 turns away, 2nd city will help but not a lot. Oracle will be late. We need to get a lot of techs from trade to pull this off. What I suggest is that sinimusta will play (after careful planning obv) until Alpha is finished (~15-16 turns I think) and then we will re-consider things.
I am not a big fan or worker stealing (IMHO it's a bit cheesy), but if you all want to do it then I am ok with it.
Well, there is no bug whatsoever involved with it, you do get penalized for doing it (diplo) so I don't really see why it is cheesy. It's strong, but not game-breaking.

Unfortunately (imo :)) stealing might not be possible here. We have not located a tile where stealing is possible. Stealing east of Mansa's cities is much more risky as we need to get the worker home to benefit from it.
 
Now that I can actually look at the save I'll make better ppp. I'm planning to play until alpha is complete, which is currently 19 turns away.

Worker will cottage FPs for the 2nd city and improve corn after border pop. It's too late for building roads to speed up settler. We don't have much to do with workers right now, since we've skipped many worker teches like mining.

Capitol doesn't really have a great 5th tile to work, wine could be farmed or cottaged. It would be just annoying later to build winery on a mature cottage. I'm somewhat concerned about barbs coming from the south, so I think I'll first get two warriors out to spawnbust. Then a worker.

It's quite a long time to alpha, so I'm not sure if it's good to delay our expansion for that long. But the fish-gold site couldn't be improved before alpha, since we lack all the mining and fishing. However, the sheep-horse site could be improved pre-alpha and we would get horses for barb defense, which would make barbs almost a non-issue. I think I could get out a worker and a settler from the capitol pre-alpha. For faster tech and thus earlier oracle, we could get a library, but I think expansion is more important at this stage of the game.

Scouts will continue to map out ai lands. Since there is some time before tech trades worker steal from mansa remains a possibility (I thought that we we're a few turns from alpha, and so war would have prevented tech trade). In my experience ai makes peace on emperor after worker steal quite easily even without killing a scout after few turns.
 
Now that I can actually look at the save I'll make better ppp. I'm planning to play until alpha is complete, which is currently 19 turns away.

Worker will cottage FPs for the 2nd city and improve corn after border pop. It's too late for building roads to speed up settler. We don't have much to do with workers right now, since we've skipped many worker teches like mining.
Plan roughly 16 worker turns, alpha will be sped up with 2nd city.

On the underlined part - we are just in time to build a road 1E (and exactly 1E, not 1NE for example) of capital to settle 1 turn earlier (wins 3:food:1:hammers:1-2:commerce:). All that compared against starting a cottage which wins only 3:commerce: (3 because that road delays our cottage by 3 turns) makes building the road a clear winner.
Capitol doesn't really have a great 5th tile to work, wine could be farmed or cottaged. It would be just annoying later to build winery on a mature cottage. I'm somewhat concerned about barbs coming from the south, so I think I'll first get two warriors out to spawnbust. Then a worker.
Actually now that we have the granary, we might as well use it. Whipping workers/settlers with a granary is much better than slow building them. Just hate to whip the cottages away, so we want to grow to at least size 5 and the 2nd city can borrow a cottage.
It's quite a long time to alpha, so I'm not sure if it's good to delay our expansion for that long. But the fish-gold site couldn't be improved before alpha, since we lack all the mining and fishing. However, the sheep-horse site could be improved pre-alpha and we would get horses for barb defense, which would make barbs almost a non-issue. I think I could get out a worker and a settler from the capitol pre-alpha. For faster tech and thus earlier oracle, we could get a library, but I think expansion is more important at this stage of the game.
Going 3 cities then Oracle is a huge gamble as it will be late. To me it seems that the only 3rd city that doesn't slow Oracle down is the gold-site (stuck at size 1 for a while working the gold), but we will get the tech for it only after alpha. Right now I think we should not insist on the Oracle and just go ahead and settle an immediately beneficial 3rd city. We have done too much non-optimal stuff already and the early game is not forgiving to mistakes. We might still get a late Oracle say ~1200BC.

Note how in that Kakumeika-game I linked they were able to skip AH and go straight pottery-writing-alpha. They also got a quick library in capital to speed up research. We are at least 10 turns behind, which is way too much of course.

The marked city locations must be changed not to miss seafood. 1NE of the gold and on the western elephant is the only way to get both fish, right? I'm not very afraid of the barbs, but agree that the best 3rd spot is sheep+horse. I think 1NW (on the desert) is a better spot than "kaupunki"-labeled spot though. Gains 4 riverside grass and the ability to borrow sheep from cap and requires 1 less road. The labeled clam-city has to be changed then of course, but there are three different ways to claim it anyway.
Scouts will continue to map out ai lands. Since there is some time before tech trades worker steal from mansa remains a possibility (I thought that we we're a few turns from alpha, and so war would have prevented tech trade). In my experience ai makes peace on emperor after worker steal quite easily even without killing a scout after few turns.
OK, good to know about the peace. Just keep an eye of the possibility to perform the worker steal. Heal the warriors, too, we don't want them to die. I think the main mission for the warriors is to confirm the assumption that we don't have land access to more AIs.

A possible build in the capital is warrior x3 until size 5, then switch to worker and whip it next turn, finish 3rd warrior (if too much overflow put it in library), grow on library (or get warrior if needed) until size 6, then whip settler. The built worker prepares connection to 3rd city and pastures sheep, then horse.

I thought about the 2nd city build and I think granary is the best. Capital needs to build warrior for this city. We need to increase our happy cap for granary (=growing) to be useful, but our 4th and 5th cities will claim phant+gold.

To all team members: Ask if you don't understand something I say.

edit: I think we should farm the wine, as we need capital to have 5 workable tiles. Not sure if this should be done with 1st or 2nd worker. Look into it. :)
 
Hey guys, looks like I'm a little late to the party. I'd like to participate but maybe I shouldn't jump in just yet. It seems that the next turnsets are going to be kind of critical. How about if after sinimusta's turnset, you go through one more cycle and then I come up to bat?

I'm warning you, though; I'm still pretty noobish. I usually play on Monarch so this is one level above my "standard".
 
Welcome jouzou! I added you into the play order but we can go next cycle without you if you wish.
 
Ok, I played until Alpha came in.

Not going to try to take that worker:
Spoiler :



Our empire:
Spoiler :


Warriors healing from combats against lion (western border) and a warrior (southern border). Workers finished cottaging the last FP and the northern warrior is coming from spawnbust patrol to military police duty. Capitol has built the settler to a point where it still can be 2-pop whipped, if we decide to wait for BW trade. I did overestimate our production, no settler before alpha, so the 3rd city is up to next player to settle.

Trade possibilities:
Spoiler :


So they don't have priesthood yet, but no fishing either.

btw I changed esp to egypt since we're planning to attack mansa. I also changed the dotmap a bit so we don't miss the fish in north.

So next is Otsomaki's turnset.
 

Attachments

So, my suggestions were again disregarded without discussion (capital grows to 5, whips worker, grows to 6, whip settler). Not sure how many :hammers: went down the drain (to be fair we did win some :commerce:), but I can test it if you want. Since the level of interaction is not very high, I won't be making any micro suggestions anymore and everyone will play as they please.

edit: Just realized that we are at least 2 turns away from BW, so whipping was not available. Still, whipping settler at size 6 with a granary wins a lot compared to slow building at size 5 (working an un-improved tile). Why was this not discussed? :crazyeye:
 
Back
Top Bottom