T2 External Consul: Objectives for the Dutch war?

[Bertie]

Next turnchat we will declare war on the Netherlands. We need to discuss and finalize our objectives for this war.

The External Consulate’s objectives in a war with the Netherlands have been:

a) Deprive The Netherlands of Iron
b) Deprive The Netherlands of Horses
c) Secure a source of Spices
d) Deprive the Netherlands of High Food City sites
e) Maximize territorial gain through peace negotiation

We still seek these objectives. But now we question whether we should stop once we achieve those goals or whether we should wage a more extensive war against the Dutch.

Capturing Ultrechect (iron city), Rotterdam (food city), Amsterdam (spices & capital), Holwerd (horses and incense), and The Hague (iron city once its borders expand) would satisfy our original goals. It would also be highly desirable to take Arnhem (contains a port) to secure our northern trade route. Therefore we advocate that we take at least these six cities.

There are an additional 5 cities that it might be wise to take now: Groningen (wines, and long a thorn in our sides); Middleburg (potential iron source); and Harleem, Breda, and Endhoven (all ideally located and easy to take; Breda has silks).

If we decide to take these 5 additional cities, we’ll be targeting 11 of the 13 cities the Dutch currently possess. If that’s the case, why not just finish the job?

The question we need to decide is: should we continue with our original plan to make this a limited war or should we rather just go ahead and eliminate the Netherlands from the map?

I’ll hold off on polling for the moment so we can discuss and hopefully develop a consensus.

 

[Nobody]

i say fight to we achive these objectives, and then acess if our military is albe to fight on to total victory

 

[greekguy]

No question about it, the Dutch must be totally annihalited during this war. Destroying them will mean we will have almost all of our sub-continent to colonize. Also, it would mean we could finish off the Indians, without fear of possible Dutch retalliation.

 

[Kentharu]

i agree why bother sparing them? it would be pointless and in the long run they might regain their power and be a bigger pain right?

 

[GenMarshall]

If this is the final draft of the External Affair's objectives, Ill go ahead and compose the plans.

 

[DaveShack]

If we take out the Netherlands all in one step, then we delay the government switch for however long that takes, or at least until it is clear we have enough units. I do that routinely in my games -- but I lose routinely on Emperor so not sure how we should proceed.

 

[Ashburnham]

I think some of the Consule's plans are a little too ambitious. As many citizens have stated, the effort required to deprive the Neatherlands of Iron would take far too much time, money, and manpower than I think we can comfortably spend at this point in the game. Let us cripple the Dutch, yes, but elimination is simply not needed. Anything we leave undone after this war can be taken care of in a latter one, once Fanatannia is on a surer footing. Once the Dutch cease being a threat, we can let them linger on for as long as we care. The first war is always the most difficult, it just gets easier after that.

 

[mad-bax]

Surprise Surprise, I believe the original goals should be met first. At that point we can reassess the situation. I might make two changes, which would be to capture Groningen to allow the possibility of taking republic in the peace deal rather than further cities.

The reason I am wary of a prolonged war is not necessarily the jump to republic. The natural thing to do would be to take republic in the peace deal and then revolt. My concern is that we don't have the infrastructure to make use of Republic. We need to stop building military ASAP and start building markets and libraries. It seems to me that a shorter war would be better for us long term.

We should take Berties 6 cities and then reassess the situation.

 

[zyxy]

Agree with Ashburnham and mad-bax.

Once Netherlands loses iron and its main production centers, they are doomed. Who cares if they hate us and live on with a few worthless towns if they can't hurt us

We should fight on until the 6 cities are taken, *and* we can get Republic in the peace deal. If we have to target any other cities, they should be cities that don't autoraze.

Also agree with building markets, but I would hold off on libraries until self-research is needed (probably after gunpowder).

 

[ravensfire]

I like zyxy's idea - set the initial endpoint as the 6 original cities PLUS enough additional cities to get Republic in the peace. Rely on the CoAF to determine the additional cities to take, and kick some butt.

This will let us shift back to a peacetime build plan sooner than full war.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Bertie]

I'm going to ditto the suggestions from Ashburnham, mad-bax, ravensfire, and in particular zyxy. What you suggest is excellent and better leads us to our ultimate goal: a cultural victory. It probably is time that we start developing our infrastructure. Assuming the RNG gods aren't against us in the Dutch war, we've essentially got this game won (or at least well on the path towards being won).

After we take the 6 cities we can revisit whether we should end the war.

 

[DaveShack]

So, shall we poll this to make sure the general population is in agreement, or rely on the assumption that those who care are dittoing the discussion?

BTW, ditto.

 

[Bertie]

So, shall we poll this to make sure the general population is in agreement, or rely on the assumption that those who care are dittoing the discussion?

BTW, ditto.

I thought of polling, but thought I'd hold off until we see how the situation develops. I don't think we'll be able to take all 6 cities in the coming turnchat; I think we may need closer to 15 turns. I was thinking we'd have time to poll before then, should we decide to. If you prefer otherwise, of course, I'd be happy to put up a poll.

 

[ravensfire]

Bertie,

Since these should be the long term stuff, get it polled and approved. You'll not have to worry about it after that. Let CG handle the details, you've got to start finding the next objective!

I would poll the choice as obliterate the Dutch, just the 6 cities and best peace, or the 6 cities plus more until we get Republic. That covers the major ideas that have support.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Furiey]

I would add Groningen to the 6 cities. All that wine and sandwiched between Camelot and Oxford and what was Lahore. At the population it is they are unlikely to hand it over so better to take it and pop-rush the population down building culture. I would rather not leave it in Dutch hands at the end of this war.

 

[greekguy]

if we're not going to totally eliminate the Dutch (which i still think is the right plan), we should definitely take Groningen.

 

[mad-bax]

I would add Groningen to the 6 cities. All that wine and sandwiched between Camelot and Oxford and what was Lahore. At the population it is they are unlikely to hand it over so better to take it and pop-rush the population down building culture. I would rather not leave it in Dutch hands at the end of this war.

Yes Furiey. Groningen is strategicaly important. Originally we were going to take it in a peace deal, but with an expensive tech for peace we will not get Groningen aswell.

That is why I say, take the 6 cities plus Groningen. Stop the chat and assess the situation.
It's nice being able to talk freely about short term tactical stuff.

 

[DaveShack]

Yes Furiey. Groningen is strategicaly important. Originally we were going to take it in a peace deal, but with an expensive tech for peace we will not get Groningen aswell.

That is why I say, take the 6 cities plus Groningen. Stop the chat and assess the situation.
It's nice being able to talk freely about short term tactical stuff.

Oh, but whether to take Groningen or not is more a strategic question than tactical. The tactical aspect is what order to take the cities in, how many troops and what kind, how much to press it before we fall back to heal, how to defend our gains, etc.

 

[Bertie]

THE POLL is up.

Thanks to ravensfire for his suggestion on how to structure it.

 

[GenMarshall]

Here is the map I am presenting for the upcomming war. The Red Line are the units that are battle harded from the Indian war, ready to spearhead into the Dutch iron city (This one I am calling the Spearhead Division). After the capture of the Dutch iron city, the unit may proceed into the purple/pink lines (I intentionaly divided them since its esential to capture both Amsterdam and Arnhem or risk losing one of the cities to a culture flip), an another alternative is to first hit Arnhem and then Amsterdam.

The Green Route makes the attempt to capture the Hague, yet another iron resource is nearby. Once that city is captured, it then can head to Oxford to pick up any reenforcements from the unit that captured Groningern (see below). Then this division shall proceed in capturing the Dutch Bread Basket (In terms with the objectives).

The Blue route makes the attempt to capture Groningen. Once captured, it can then link to Oxford to proceed capturing the Dutch breadbasket.

I apologise for the lateness of the map since I had to figure out the best way to gain the cities while keeping within reason of the External Affairs Objectives. Which is to deny the Dutch of their iron and boot them out of the Bread Basket region. Any city that cant be captured can be aquired via diplomacy in exchange of peace.

I would like to thank Furiey for the map with the culture regions highlighted .