Tactics and strategy...follow the action

[Munro]

I'm simming the zulu start to see where the nuances are.

First up was settling in place (adjacent to the 2 corn).

Spoiler :

Zulu - settle in place (b)
----------------------
.....
5) size 2; (switch to worker)
...
9) 20h in worker; whip to size 1
10) worker ready (finish warrior)
11) warrior ready (build Ikhanda)
.
13) corn1 improved (+3f) - move to chop forest; start archer1 (1h insurance)
14) size2; work unimproved corn (size3 in 2t); resume Ikhanda
15) 6h in Ikhanda; whip to size 1
16) size2; (size 3 in 3t); Ikhanda complete; resume archer1
17) chop 13h; start worker
18) 21h in worker; whip to size1; improve corn2
19) worker2 finished; help improve corn2; continue archer1
20) size2 (size3 in 2t); corn2 improved (+2f)
21) archer1 complete; start archer2
22) size3 (size4 in 2t); mine1 complete
23) (split workers to improve 2 remaining hills)
24) size4; (size4 in 3t); work grassland forest
25) 40% border pop; archer2 complete; start archer3
26) mine2 & mine3 complete; work plains hill mine
27) size5; (happy cap - s6 in 3t); 2corn, 2glhill; 1plhill (+5f 11h); move to chop x2
28) archer3 built; start archer4 (1t with 6h overflow)
29) archer4 built; start settler (4 turns)
.
30) chop 26h into settler
.
32) settler done

Counting 4000BC as turn 0, final stats on turn 32 were:

• Producing +5 and +11 at size5 (the happy cap)
• Size 5 with 15/20 stored = size 6 in 1 turn (80 accumulated total)
• Built: warrior (turn 11), 4x archer (turns 21, 25, 28, 29), ikhanda, settler, 2 worker = 239 total
• All archers built with 3/2 XP

This included chopping the forest adjacent to my city (for hammers and security) on turn 17.

Other thoughts and observations:

• BW completed on turn 5 but earliest possible whip was turn 9; earliest chop turn 14
• techs were: BW -> Archery -> AH -> IW -> Pottery (although I only made use of the first two); had all these by turn 27 or so; after that, it was either Monarchy (via Med) or MC - each about 26 turns total
• With 2 corn and no happy resources, no charismatic trait etc - the 5 pop happy cap became an issue quite quickly
• Zulu is quite isolated - Persia only has wine, so no chance of early trading for happy resources either (pre-monarchy)
• Zulu has a spiritial leader so could switch to a religion for free

Given all this, would Meditation first to get an early religion for Zulu be worthwhile? Although it will delay BW, archery etc by about 3 turns each, the benefits are:
- increase Zulu happy cap; with 2 corn that will be useful for more whip production
- faster border pops - with isolated start, gives useful earlier visibility and cultural defences.

In my test, BW and Archery were both ready more than 3 turns earlier than I was actually able to use them, so in practice this wouldn't have actually cost me anything (and in fact we would have then got a +15% 'known civ with this tech' boost to all of our research once we meet the other team - almost the equivalent of a whole additional player on our team).

Plus we deny all of the above benefits to the other team.

Thoughts? Would delaying these techs by 3-4 turns hurt the other players on our team much?

 

[Munro]

Here's a go at the plains-hill settle site.

Spoiler :

Zulu - settle on plains hill (c)
----------------------
.
1) settler; work grassland hill forest; start warrior (3 turns); .
..
4) warrior1 done; 20% border pop; start warrior 2
7) BW discovered; start archery (4 turns)
8) size2; warrior2 done; start worker
.
10) discover archery; start AH (4 turns)
.
12) 24h in worker1; whip to size 1
13) worker done; start Ikhanda
14) start improving corn
17) corn1 improved (+3f); switch to archer1 (insurance)
18) size2; start worker2; finsih part-built rd 1SE of capital; resume Ikhanda
19) ikhada done; resume archer1
20) size3; start chop (3t)
22) chop 13h; start worker2
23) 21h in worker2; whip to size 2
24) worker2 built; resume archer1
25) archer1 built; start archer2
26) split workers (each hill)
27) size4; archer2 done; build archer3
29) size5 (2t to size 6)
30) archer3 done; start settler
.
32) chop for 26h
33) settler built

There's some MM that can probably be done here to get the settler out 1 turn earlier (by working grassland hill forests at size 4, instead of grassland forests, to get +2 overflow from archer3 into the settler, allowing 1t earlier completion).

However, regardless, the stats are very similar:

Counting 4000BC as turn 0, final stats on turn 32 were:

• Producing +6 and +10 at size5 (the happy cap)
• Size 5 with 14/20 stored = size 6 in 1 turn (79 accumulated total)
• Built: 2x warrior (turns 4, 8), 3x archer (25, 27, 30), ikhanda, settler (t32-33), 2 workers (2x40) = 233h 11), 4x archer (turns 21, 25, 28, 29), ikhanda, settler, 2 worker (13,24) = 233 base total
• All archers built with 3/2 XP

This scenario has more overflow though, so as the screenshots show, both scenarios then finish the 3rd worker on turn 34 (and with some MM, the plains hill start also gets the settler on turn 32).

So really the only difference with the plains hill start - at least with this set of opening builds and moves - is that, compared to settling in place, the plains hill gets:
- one less archer, one extra warrior (but 13 turns earlier)
- +25% defence bonus for capital

So I'm leaning towards the plains-hill start at this point... (although I probably need to redo the tests and 2 pop whip the settlers at size 4 as that's more realistic).

But still, settling in place for earlier corn doesn't seem to make that much difference. Seems that the extra 30+ hammers from the city tile has made up for delayed corn, by then... and the earlier combat1 warrior could be a lifesaver for spotting an early rush (or even applying some kind of early choke).

As an aside: I saw the game was currently paused. How long do we have to play the first turn.. is there a bit more time allowed for this first turn to get everyone started, or is the pause not meant to be there?

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Hi everyone,

Just logged on and looked at the save. Then back to the forums here with the sad realization that I have never spent this much time dissecting the early game! This will be fun indeed.

Anyway, I believe the Maya should either settle in place or 1NE. Since AH is a necessity for only myself and Raskolnikov, I think I should ditch the Pigs for now and make the Flood Plains my key to initial growth. It will allow us to beeline to BW, or try out Munro's religious strategy if we can agree to it.

From a strategic standpoint, settling on the hill 1NE sounds like the best move of the two. While it still leaves some high ground further south, the adjacent tiles I can see are grassland. Settling in place will allow the enemy a nice selection of adjacent hills to attack us from.

Also, do you want me to move the Scout due west before we finalize the Settler instructions? Let me know and I can log on and do it in the morning.

 

[Indiansmoke]

@ Munro.... nice analysis
Some extra points in favor on plains hill.... the 2 fast warriors with the plains hill settle might prove very valuable as they will allow you to get them in an opponent's city and stop him from getting into yours. Also this scenario you tested assumes you will be left alone to expand...this might well not be the case. An extra hammer in city means that you will possibly get warriors archers or other units a turn faster in case of immergency.

Also...meditation first does not guarandee that religion will pop in zulu, it could go in any civ. And in any case this delaying 5 civs developpment to get an extra happy person and some culture for 1 civ seems mad. Execpt from chopping and slaving we need to see where copper is, if we have it and as importantly if our opponents have it.

P.S 2 pop whip for settler is the way to go.

@ Donovan... I don't think that the floods will make up for the 5 food tile. Tech path will be bronze, archery and then AH as we need to see where horses are. So by the time we tech AH your first worker will have chopped 1 forest and will be in place to improve the pig.

In any case you need to move your scout to see more of the land..... 2 options, you can move him on the plains hill by the floods to see what is there, or on the orest hill to the west to see if there are any more resources there (although there seem to be forests there at least 2/3 tiles).

Also don't forget that you might be forced to stay in 1 pop due to slaving for many turns...if you are at 1 pop working the pig beats the plains cow or the floods big time.


So....I would suggest

I settle 1S as it gains a forest in BFC and has 1 more hill.
Mali moves settler on plains hill and scout towards there as well to scout the front
Maya moves scout on plains hill next to floods and the decides on the settler
Natives move settler on plains hill and scout towards their west
And zulu moves scout to the grass hill 1SW of the settler to see a bit more of land...if he does not like what he sees, then move setler on plains hill.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

how do you know the front is there IndianSmoke (speaking of the scout move heere )?

Will we open a thread by civ for lurkers (dunno if you replyed to fed1943)?

 

[Indiansmoke]

Well in the north it is 3 of us and 3 of them....since the map is cylindrical that means that the front is both to the east and to the west...but the front closest to you is to your west obviously.

It is important to find the closest opponent fast, so we can see how close he is, who he is and scout his land for resources.

I have not replyied to fed....oups..fed you can folow the game here in this thread were screenshots will be posted.


Also after you make your moves...if there is nothing left to do (ie you moved both settler and worker) press end turn so we can get the game moving.

 

[fed1943]

Thank you.

 

[CiverDan1]

I moved, got 3 forest hills directly next to my cap. Those have to be chopped ASAP, esp if I have babs near me (would never get bowmen off with dogs). Persia has Marble and Stone in cap. Marble could be settled, but I would rather have 2 pig for growth and marble will be quarried before the time comes for Oracle if we want to attempt it.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Here is an update screeny of Mali starting position... one more pig, stone and marble
I guess I am the SH (Oracle?) dude now... I am going to think about different openings now...

Spoiler :

Cheers,
Ras

 

[Indiansmoke]

I moved, got 3 forest hills directly next to my cap. Those have to be chopped ASAP, esp if I have babs near me (would never get bowmen off with dogs). Persia has Marble and Stone in cap. Marble could be settled, but I would rather have 2 pig for growth and marble will be quarried before the time comes for Oracle if we want to attempt it.

Can you post a screen Dan?

 

[oyzar]

Double pigs stone and marble? insane!

 

[oyzar]

@ Donovan: The floodplains are indeed not enough for food, but what they do is that they allow you to grow to size 2 to whip a worker much sooner than if you don't have a 3 food tile to work. Doing a sim like Munro did would be nice. You said you needed help with the early game, well there are people here to help you...

 

[Donovan Zoi]

OK, moved the Scout and found a Rice to our east. If settled in place, the first Maya city could have Pigs, Rice, Cow and 2 Flood Plains --- but would still suffer the defensive drawback of being nearly surrounded by hills.

This city would be a builder's dream, but is there any advantage to us maxing out a food city in this type of game? Genghis gives us 50% off on Settlers, so we could fill in land quickly once we find a safe direction to settle (if that exists!).

As far as the scout, I am thinking of moving him to an eastern hill next turn to locate a possible eastern front. Any city we build will obviously give us the tiles to our west.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

@ Donovan: The floodplains are indeed not enough for food, but what they do is that they allow you to grow to size 2 to whip a worker much sooner than if you don't have a 3 food tile to work. Doing a sim like Munro did would be nice. You said you needed help with the early game, well there are people here to help you...

Thanks, oyzar. With this being my first 5v5, I am still unclear on things like collective tech and resources (ie do we all benefit from Zulu stone once we are all connected?) etc. so it would be hard for me to do a sim myself at this point. Part of my original Flood Plain idea originated from my presumption of a delayed trip to AH, but it looks like we'll get it sooner than I think!

Not to worry, my total noobness here is balanced by the talent of taking orders until I know what the heck I am doing. I'll try to read up what I can, but any help would definitely be appreciated.

 

[Indiansmoke]

@ Donovan...the irrigated rice makes the plains hill where your scout is on a good settling spot. Obviously in place would have a great BFC, but that is out of the question since you would be chocked badly. So I suppose you can go for that spot if you like it as well.

Now regarding teamers. Resources are individual. So if I have stone I have it not everyone, and unless we are connected with trade routes we cannot trade resources. Wonders are for everyone though (stonhedge means free monument to every city for all 5 of us), there are a few exeptions like great library, temple of Artemis and Taj which are for the civ that build them only.

Tech is obviously shared and most times it is best that all 5 research same tech to get it faster...there are exeptions however when we can get 2 techs in 1 turn but for ater in the game.

Finnally, do not worry and enjoy the game! It is a learning process for all of us, we are all noobs in this kind of game here, hopefully we will work together as a team, enjoy the game and give Civplayers a good fight...who knows maybe win as well

 

[oyzar]

With this start you are looking at building a warrior while growing to size 2, after the warrior finishes, you can revolt to slavery and start on a worker, then when you get 20 hammers into the worker(4 turns of building it) you can whip it. Then you can build a barracks then holkans while regrowing. The worker should obviously improve the rice first then AH will likely be in so it can improve the cows.

 

[Renata]

With the irrigated rice, I really love that plains hill site for the Maya. Even with just floodplains I liked it, but this is perfect.

Persia *and* Mali have a marble/stone capital? Neat.

Are we still considering worker-first for Ras? That's a great site and reasonably defensible, but those are a whole lot of forests to be chopped.

 

[oyzar]

No, just mali, obviously a typo, and yes ras is doing worker first. Only 5 forests to chop, i have seen worse.

 

[Renata]

I should have realized that; it's Indiansmoke that's playing Persia.

Enough forests it'll be nice to get started on it sooner than later.

 

[Munro]

@ Munro.... nice analysis
Some extra points in favor on plains hill.... the 2 fast warriors with the plains hill settle might prove very valuable as they will allow you to get them in an opponent's city and stop him from getting into yours. Also this scenario you tested assumes you will be left alone to expand...this might well not be the case. An extra hammer in city means that you will possibly get warriors archers or other units a turn faster in case of immergency.

Thanks. Yes - I agree. So unless there are any new objections, I'll settle on the plains hill and build warrior, warrior while growing to size 2 (then switch to worker and whip on turn 12).

Also...meditation first does not guarandee that religion will pop in zulu, it could go in any civ.

Can't we just have the other 4 civs switch to BW on the last turn to guarantee that Zulu finishes the tech and gets it? That has always worked in my previous team games, as well as for free great people and the tech from Liberalism. That means we can chose which civ gets the religion.. (unless someone has first hand experience that proves this isn't the case)?

I agree though we shouldn't sacrifice development of the other 4 civs to benefit 1. But are we sure we'd actually be sacrificing anything meaningful? Going Meditation first will put our research about 3 turns behind - but will 3 turns earlier BW (turn 6 instead of turn 9) actually make any difference to the early builds and moves? We won't have reached any of our opponents BFC by then (some of us won't even have the first warrior built) so is getting that knowledge 3 turns later actually going to set us back any?

(For example - which turn will Mali be ready to build her first skirm - will 2-3 turns later Archery impact that at all? Will we build a barracks first in that city anyway?)

Also remember that being 2nd to BW and Archery etc etc then gives us all 15% research bonus on all those techs (which means we'll ultiamately be faster to Monarchy) - if the delay doesn't actually cost us anything tangible, then that’s another advantage, on top of the extra whip we can get for Zulu, plus earlier visiblity and defence bonuses..

I'm not saying Med first is necessarily the right choice (and my gut tells me it probably isn't) but the benefits are tangible, and for Zulu anyway, there isn't really any downside - since the delayed techs still all seem to arrive in time for when I will be ready to actually use them (including for exploration etc).

Since everyone's start is different though, is getting BW on turn 10 and Archery on 13 (instead of 7 and 10) actually going to impact anyone's early development, builds, moves etc? What exactly would we be forfeiting and how does that compare to the extra unit or two we could whip out of the Zulu capital, plus the research boost and less tangible early visiblity and defence bonuses..

(Maybe we don't have time to do this ananlysis in which case BW is fine with me but it may be we have the chance to get something for effectively nothing here if the slighty delay isn't actually going to influence the actions or outcome for any of us..)

Also - one final thought. I like the idea of an early cash upgrade for first native warrior. That could really mess up an opponents early development. Is it worth doing the same for Maya as well, to get an extremely early Holkan? (Just need to be careful in both cases if we spot borders of Babylon).