Tanks

stimpyhoek

Warlord
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
171
I have had a few games(online) where the game has carried on past industrialism. Ive never been a cottage fan but this means my tech after 1700ish is just massively inferior (normally a quarter/third of leaders). I can keep up till this point in the game by keeping a beaurau(cant spell that word) capital and stay in philo, this means I can compete techwise. But as I said BOOM I get blown away by the cottage spammers. Is there anyway not to do universal suffrage cottage thing? Any late civic combos that can be competitive?
 
A simple way to keep up (i do this on warlord just to maximize my effort) is to find how many farms are needed-for every tile that makes 1 food it is -1, 0 food -2, 2 food 0, 3 food 1. add these up, then add +2 for the automatically used city tile, that is how many farms and windmills and the likes you need. then build the rest as anything (mostly cottages), and you are good to go.
 
Late game rep specs can keep you par with those ais as AZ mentions. This strat will struggle mid game though before bio if you don't conquer an ai that does have cottages..
 
I should have put "tanks for feedback"....... I dont deliberately avoid cottages. I know the capital needs to be a tech monster. Its just the maturation of tons of cottages isnt enjoyable ( and worker micro is boring). I really like the idea of running tons of scientists..... I know this game is better than a one dimensional optimal strategy is all. And I also approve heartily of plenty of windmills coz they can give plenty of coin too.
 
I'd thought it was Tanks in advance .

War ! Tanks solve the problem !

Tanks in rear , Tanks by your side !!
 
My experience is that you simply can't make it without cottages. Bureaucracy cottages + RepSpecs are decent, but they still struggle. Financial is simply the best trait and not choosing it is a mistake.
 
Rep / Nationalism / Pacifism, spy specialists.

One mature cottage is worth 7C and a hammer. One bio-farm plus one spy is worth 8C plus some GPP. The cottages in your cap get multiplied by 50% (which then gets multiplied by all the buildings, so it's really like 150%), but the spies everywhere get a 25% bump from Nat.

Once you get the multiplier buildings, each city gives a base 30 EP/turn or so. Add in 5 spies and you're up to about 80 EPT and 30-40 BPT from 10 pop, meaning a mature city can also work some workshops or scientists.

Fun additional option: Put the culture slider up, draft a ton, and run Mercantilism (because commerce doesn't matter). With theaters, a full culture slider is worth 30 happiness, meaning you can draft each city as fast as it grows and they'll keep working.
 
My experience is that you simply can't make it without cottages. Bureaucracy cottages + RepSpecs are decent, but they still struggle. Financial is simply the best trait and not choosing it is a mistake.
So you never play with a non financial leader? That seems to be a bit one dimensional?
 
Rep / Nationalism / Pacifism, spy specialists.

One mature cottage is worth 7C and a hammer. One bio-farm plus one spy is worth 8C plus some GPP. The cottages in your cap get multiplied by 50% (which then gets multiplied by all the buildings, so it's really like 150%), but the spies everywhere get a 25% bump from Nat.

Once you get the multiplier buildings, each city gives a base 30 EP/turn or so. Add in 5 spies and you're up to about 80 EPT and 30-40 BPT from 10 pop, meaning a mature city can also work some workshops or scientists.

Fun additional option: Put the culture slider up, draft a ton, and run Mercantilism (because commerce doesn't matter). With theaters, a full culture slider is worth 30 happiness, meaning you can draft each city as fast as it grows and they'll keep working.
There are 2 problems with this imo,

1. You either focus on esp in whcich case science points are more or less useless as you'll steal techs before you'll be able to research them.Or you'll focus on science in which case you'll use scientists, not spies.

2. You need to have a good target, vassalized Mansa is great, advanced but powerful techleader not so great as he'll declare on you at some point.

Having said that it's a good strat if you have a good esp target, cottages and raising the esp slider probably net more spy points but the ability to build SY's from all those assigned spies and the general flexibility of such an economy more than counteracts that.
 
So you never play with a non financial leader? That seems to be a bit one dimensional?

Well, that's the balance of the game and I see no reason to handicap myself.

I find the traits very nicely balanced for single-player, but online versus humans the game changes and so does the strength of the traits. Things like bulbing is very powerful when playing against the AI, but humans will not let you trade techs like mad - if tech trading is even allowed.
 
Two ways to compare. First is per pop. A mature cottage should net ~23 beakers per pop (7C -> 21 beakers, 1H -> 2 beakers).
A windmill can get you ~16 beakers per pop: 4C -> 12 beakers, 2P -> 4 beakers.
A bio-farm plus a scientist spec., plus bulbing with the GS that pop, should get you ~10-12 beakers per turn per pop on average (18 for spec., 2-6 for bulbing, split over two pop).
A workshop and building research should net 8 beakers per pop (4H -> 8 beakers).
A bio-farm plus a spy spec. is good for 6 beakers and 6 espionage per pop. The 6 EPs should be worth anywhere from 10-30 beakers in stolen techs depending on other game factors (like whether you got a holy city), making this worth 16-36 beakers per pop.

From this perspective, cottages look very good. Windmills can give you 75% of the research, spy specs. can actually do better if you've got all the right infrastructure, the right game situation, and good neighbors to steal from. Everything else is doing far worse - as in, barely half as good. And this is the right perspective if the limiting factor on your development is happy cap.

But the other way to look at it is per-tile. If you're limited not by happy cap, but by amount of land you can make use of, this is a better approach. Note that just because all your current cities are at happy cap doesn't mean you are limited by happy cap - you can settle new interior cities that overlap tiles. A late-game bio-farm + specialist economy will tend to have slightly denser city placement than a late-game cottage economy, because you need more cities to work all your tiles.

Per-tile, cottages are still worth 23 beakers.
Windmills are still worth 16 beakers.
Bio-farms plus scientist specs are worth 20-26 beakers; comparable to cottages.
A workshop is still 8 beakers.
Bio-farms plus spy specs. are worth 32-72 beakers.

Here cottages don't look so unassailable. In fact, bio-farms and spies are blowing everything else out of the water.

But now the analysis starts to break down into more nebulous factors. Settling more cities to work the same number of tiles plus some specs. is going to increase upkeep significantly. Relying on spy specs. means relying on your neighbors' tech choices, and might well piss off your neighbors as well. Cottages are very vulnerable to pillaging. Workshops give you a big boost to flexibility of production in addition to their research potential. Windmills have to be built on hills, where you might want mines instead, and require Environmentalism to hope to compete. Farms and specs. allows for whips to boost production. A whole host of early-game factors might push you into going for farm-and-spec. early, in which case a late-game transition to cottages is quite difficult. Farms give more pop, which gives you more votes in the UN. PHI leaders get more GP; ORG leaders can more easily pay the upkeep of late-game specs, CHA leaders can be somewhat less limited by happy cap late game. FIN leaders get stronger cottages. And the list goes on...

Bottom line, though: most of the time, the only thing that can keep up with mature cottages in research late-game is going to be spy specialists, and even that is a bit situational. But - more densely packing your cities can get scientist specs. to come close. Also, mature cottages are one of the weakest late-game options for production (bio-farms plus slavery, and particularly plus slavery and Kremlin, are much better; workshops, windmills, mines, lumbermills, and watermills are all obviously better).
 
Also, mature cottages are one of the weakest late-game options for production (bio-farms plus slavery, and particularly plus slavery and Kremlin, are much better; workshops, windmills, mines, lumbermills, and watermills are all obviously better).
Not realy, with universal sufrage and kremlin are the stronger.
 
Not realy, with universal sufrage and kremlin are the stronger.

Universal Suffrage with Kremlin can be useful for production, true. For production cities without having to use gold taken from research, State Property Watermills and Workshops are great. Financial's a strong trait and goes well with cottages, but bulbing with a Philosophical leader early and using SP watermills and workshops for great production to conquer the world works too. Or later game corps. with an Organized leader.

I used to be a US junkie but I'm starting to see the benefit of late game Representation. Besides, I'd hate to tie myself to only eight leaders. There are a lot of different ways to play the game.
 
Top Bottom