tech advance in fewer than 4 turns?

[Anglophile]

There are two settings in the editor that effect the research cost for a tech - the basic cost in the Advance Folder and a modifier in the Map Size folder. As far as I know - and what my experience indicates - is that the modifier affects only the cost, not the min/max turn parameter. I agree with the comments saying that there is an editable field for min/max times and they are 4/40 as defaults (I think they were 4/32 before the patch). There may be another modifier in there somewhere to explain Allemand's observations - which I have also read elsewhere but never experienced. Will be interested in the feedback as to his settings.

 

[Allemand]

Checked my settings and they were right: 4 minimum, 40 maximum, and 400 future tech cost. That means I'll stand by my arguments. Anyone don't believe it's possible to research in less than 4 turns, that's your problem. I'm happy.

 

[Woody]

Originally posted by Allemand
Guys, I am amazed that you can call someone wrong when you have no basis or concrete evidence to support your own position. Just because you haven’t been able to do better than four turns doesn’t mean it’s not possible. I routinely do it in the late game. I don’t bother with mods or editing because I don’t like changing the rules, that usually leads to boredom. I do play on huge maps and end up with 80 to 100 cities in the Modern Era. With all the science improvements in place in most of my cities the research potential is very high. Three-turn research often becomes possible if I want to pump an extra 500-1000 gold per turn into it. Even two-turn research is occasionally possible, but at even greater costs. I have the money at that stage, but seldom use it to improve research by just one or two turns.

I’m aware that most discussions on this board have ended with great doubt that you can research in less than four turns. However, there is nothing written in the rules or by Firaxis that it is so. My own experience tells me it can be done. Before calling me stupid you should try it yourselves. But taking someone else’s word for something and treating it as gospel doesn’t make you very smart. And saying that it’s not possible because you have never been able to do it also doesn’t cut it.

Well just for fun I pulled out a save of a game that I played into the modern era and saved just before I built my last spaceship part.

This game was on a huge map with 16 civs, I am playing on monarch level, its now 2000 AD I own every sqaure inch of the planet except one 4 square island that the romans have(I turned off cultural and domination victory conditions). I have about 250 cities, those that arent a 1 production city due to corruption are fully developed(about 75), even some of the 1 productions have libarys and universities. I am under democracy, I am playing the germans so I am a scientific tribe.

I am researching future tech, I can get an advance in 4 turns with science on 20%(2520 beakers). If I bump science to 100%(12877 beakers) its still 4 turns.

Now tell me what you think I can do to get an advance in less than 4 turns? I would actually like to know how to do it, it is not unusually for me to get into the situtation where it only takes 30%-50% science to get tech in 4 turns so being able to do it in fewer would be very useful.

PS I am using the 1.16 version of the game.

 

[Beamup]

Allemand -
Could you provide a specific example? E.g. "If I'm researching Sanitation and my science production is 3000 beakers/turn it takes only 3 turns." This will provide a more-or-less reproducible experiment people can perform.

 

[grumbler]

A save game where this elusive feat of researching in fewer than four turns can be observed would be the best way to settle this issue ...

 

[Allemand]

Greetings, grumbler, you have traveled far to get to this hallowed place. Perhaps you remember my opa? Hawkman is his name.

I don't have a saved game (they take too much space which can be more dear than the game). Also don't remember if there were any special circumstances. Although I see it in every game, it doesn't happen for every tech. I'm thinking it might be occurring when I research an "easy" tech, but I'll save it next time.

Meanwhile, you'll just have to resign yourself to the fact that the Allemand is better at science. Or not, if you can't bear that. Hey, just joking!

 

[Magnus]

Originally posted by Allemand
I don't have a saved game (they take too much space which can be more dear than the game

Typical all talk and no proof

I over 50 saved games and I have a mere 4 gig hardrive what is your excuse?

 

[eyrei]

I keep wondering when this thread will turn into a flamewar. It is very similar to the Spearmen vs. Tanks and Two Golden Ages debates.:suicide:

 

[CD Light]

Hmm. Puzzling (my favorite word).

Allemand, it has been statistically shown that it is impossible to get below four turns. Since you (I'm taking your statement as true, since you say it is) have observed less than four turns for science with 4 turns being the editor's limit, therefore:

A. There is a bug specifically limited to you, or:

B. You are mistaken. Perhaps you have already been researching for a turn or two when you check the # of turns you need? Just a thought.

PS: I am not trying to flame or anything. If it sounds like I am, I will punish myself by flinging my unworthy body to the fiery depths!

 

[Nero Would]

Since the editor shows you a "Minimum research time" that defaults to 4 turns, Firaxis obviously intend to limit advances to one every 4 turns. Many people have got to the point where they can get an advance in 4 turns with the science percentage set quite low, and seen that increasing the science slider to 100% does not get you an advance in less than 4 four turns. That at least proves that some effect is kicking in at 4 turns.

However, it is always possible that there is a bug that allows advances in less than 4 turns in some circumstances. Perhaps the effect of Scientists is not properly accounted for in the calculation of the limit. Perhaps the program gets confused when the amount of gold going to science is increased during the first three turns.

This issue could be settled if someone who can get an advance in less than four turns either describes the circumstances so that everyone else can reproduce the effect, or posts a saved game showing the effect so that we can attempt to see what causes it.

 

[Magnus]

What would be needed is simply a screenshot of the science advisor's drop dowwn menu showing what advances can be researched next and it showing something with less than 4 turns - that way you KNOW it is legitimately happening at the beginning of research and not in the middle.

 

[jimmytrick]

Hi,

I am a long time Civ player and regular poster at Poly and other Civ sites. I have been reading this forum for some time but never bother to register here.

I decided to register to post my experience with this issue. Prior to 1.16 I was able to get techs in three turns quite often, maybe 2 or 3 times a game. The way I would do it was to adjust the slider to the minimum expenditure to allow discovery in 4 turns on the first turn of researching a particular tech. Then on the second turn I would check to see if I needed to adjust again to stay at the minimum (which would be 3 turns). On the third turn I would check and every now and then if I ramped the slider all the way to the right I could get to one turn. That allowed a three turn discovery. I did not play 1.16 and just installed 1.17 and have not played far enough into the game to see if this is still possible.

Take it for what its worth.

jt

 

[GraceofBhaal]

I will confirm that gaining techs in under 4 turns at least "was" possible even with 1.16. I acomplished this by the same method as jimmytrick describes above. "Changing the tech rate more than once during its research". I discovered this on accident trying to get more gold back by playing with the tech rate.
I have only played 1 game with 1.17 - I don´t remember an "under 4 tech" incident occuring, so I cannot verify that it is still possible.
A free tech via Great Library or recieved by trade can produce a new default tech researchable in less than 4 turns.


A note on philosophical debate:
Philosophical question: If a tree falls in the woods and noone is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Philosophical reply: The answer is ALWAYS semantical - It depends on YOUR definition of the word "sound". If sound is something that is heard, then NO it does not make a sound. If "sound" is classified as a displacing wave moving through the fabric of space-time then, YES it does make a sound.:

 

[jimmytrick]

I had another thought on this issue based on something that happened in my current game. I was on a continent with 3 other Civs, somewhere out in the darkness lurked 4 more. I got a dialog popup stating that a wonder had been built (Lighthouse?), and I thought "gee I better check if someone now has communications with the Lost Tribes.

Sure enough one of the Civs on my continent had comms with the 4 others. So, I asked what I could trade for comm with one of them. The price was not bad, so I thought, let me add the other 3 and see if I can get all four.

Here I may have stumbled on a bug, for the price did not go up at all. I took the deal. I immediately noticed that the tech I was researching went from 7 turns to 1 turn. So, I expect that whenever you get comm with a Civ that has a tech you are researching this triggers a recalculation. Also, whenever a Civ you already know gains knowledge of a tech you are researching, this may also trigger a recalculation. Either of these instances could result *perhaps* in a situation where a tech is discovered in less than 4 years.

BTW, after I got those 4 comms I found that the newly discovered Civs had nothing whatsoever to trade. So, maybe getting 4 comms for the price of one was neither a particularly good bargin or a bug.

Lt. Col. jtrick, ret.
Confederacy of Chiron

 

[AnnC]

jimmytrick - when you abandoned the Confederacy of Chiron, you forfeited the right to use any titles associated with that organization.

 

[jimmytrick]

Between you and Ming I can't post anywhere.

 

[AnnC]

As far as I'm concerned, jimmytrick, you may post anywhere you wish. But you may not associate yourself with the Confederacy of Chiron.

 

[ukrneal]

I have to agree with the original poster that the gameplay has not been improved by this change. I have had several games now where, around the 1500's or so, the game slows down. There are few techs to trade, few wonders to build, and few things to do in general.

One way of resolving this would be for the science rate to exceed 4 turns/increase. Does it chnage at higher levels? I usually play at 3rd or 4th level - whatever they're called.

 

[Nero Would]

Originally posted by ukrneal
I have to agree with the original poster that the gameplay has not been improved by this change. I have had several games now where, around the 1500's or so, the game slows down. There are few techs to trade, few wonders to build, and few things to do in general.

One way of resolving this would be for the science rate to exceed 4 turns/increase. Does it chnage at higher levels? I usually play at 3rd or 4th level - whatever they're called.

The minimum (and maximum) number of turns per tech are the same for all difficulty levels. You can change them in the Editor if you want.

 

[Grotius]

I agree with Beamup about the end of the tech tree. I've never seen it because the game always ends before anyone gets to it. As he pointed out, the game-ending techs are at the beginning and middle of the modern age. Once you have all the spaceship techs, who needs anything more? Someone either builds the spaceship or wins by diplomatic victory, and the game ends without seeing the most modern techs.

I guess the workaround is to disable spaceship victory, but it's my favorite type of victory. I just wish we were required to research every tech to get to the spaceship.