Tech and Civic boosts

[footslogger]

I don't read about dissatisfaction with the 40% boosts any more. Does that mean people are happy with them as they stand? I still think they are way too high and would prefer them to be 20 or perhaps 25%. That would still be a boost worth having and at a simple stroke it would do something about the completely out of synch eras vis-a-vis historical reality. I hate reaching the industrial era in about 1200AD.

 

[criZp]

If you prefer that then just fix the value yourself

 

[Infixo]

Maybe add a poll? It would actually be interesting what level people consider optimal, i.e. not too much to break tech progress, but also not too low to still be attractive to pursue.
With options like 15-20-25-30-35-40-45-50.

I've been using 35% in Real Tech Tree from for the last 2 years, and now I am leaning to even lower it a bit to 30%.

 

[criZp]

An alternative to lowering the bonus is to make the bonus a bit more difficult to achieve, so that eurekas and inspirations trigger less often

 

[Arent11]

I don't read about dissatisfaction with the 40% boosts any more. Does that mean people are happy with them as they stand? I still think they are way too high and would prefer them to be 20 or perhaps 25%. That would still be a boost worth having and at a simple stroke it would do something about the completely out of synch eras vis-a-vis historical reality. I hate reaching the industrial era in about 1200AD.

I would prefer them to be randomized and the conditions randomized as well & hidden from the player.

 

[Infixo]

I would prefer them to be randomized and the conditions randomized as well & hidden from the player.

Have you tried Real Eurekas?

 

[footslogger]

Maybe add a poll?

Good idea. Be my guest if you know how to do it.

 

[Infixo]

Good idea. Be my guest if you know how to do it.

I can't modify your post. At the top, in thread tools, there should be Add Poll option.

 

[Arent11]

Have you tried Real Eurekas?

Hey, that looks almost like my idea The only thing missing is maybe hiding the trigger, so that you can't plan for it.

If I had lots of time, I would mod all that myself, but I don't. So, thanks Infixo

 

[Infixo]

Hey, that looks almost like my idea The only thing missing is maybe hiding the trigger, so that you can't plan for it.

You can hide triggers also, there is an option when you start a game in the Addvanced Options menu.

 

[Abaxial]

Personally I'm happy with 40% and would not want them any lower.

 

[footslogger]

I can't modify your post. At the top, in thread tools, there should be Add Poll option.

Thanks for explaining it. Poll added. Easy when you know how.

 

[Victoria]

I feel you should get a % for being near a civ that has the discovery and a % for having a trade route to that civ. Natirally a % for doing the eureka/inspiration task but some are so gamey.... kill a unit with a musket man to help discover frigates?.... as opposed to having discovered field cannons which you just bang in a ship and with a bit of carpentry and shipwright skill you have a frigate.
It is hard to hide a civic from visitors

 

[TomeTraveler]

I feel you should get a % for being near a civ that has the discovery and a % for having a trade route to that civ. Natirally a % for doing the eureka/inspiration task but some are so gamey.... kill a unit with a musket man to help discover frigates?.... as opposed to having discovered field cannons which you just bang in a ship and with a bit of carpentry and shipwright skill you have a frigate.
It is hard to hide a civic from visitors

This, and a further percent for each technology known by a Civ with which you have a Research Alliance. Really you could come up with a whole list of modifiers, for example, having your units do battle with units built by a tech you don't have, should give a slight boost. So many more possibilities, it probably gets too complex. In general I like the forty percent but think that that value should be achieved after such bonuses and the plain value might be say, twenty-five percent?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I feel you should get a % for being near a civ that has the discovery and a % for having a trade route to that civ. Natirally a % for doing the eureka/inspiration task but some are so gamey.... kill a unit with a musket man to help discover frigates?.... as opposed to having discovered field cannons which you just bang in a ship and with a bit of carpentry and shipwright skill you have a frigate.
It is hard to hide a civic from visitors

Actually, the "required additional Tech" would be represented by Bombards - heavy cast iron smooth bore cannon which formed the basis (with the short-carriage invented by the English in the late 16th century) for all ship-board cannon until the early 19th century.

IF the purpose of the Eureka/Bonus system was to 'guide' your research in given directions, it has failed spectacularly: individual Eurekas are too easy to get, research times are too short and the number of Techs or Civics being 'researched' is too low for the length of game. So we get Tech Trees that are finished to Future Tech before the game is more than half over (Turn 250 out of 500 on Standard Speed) and you research whatever's fastest, knowing that you will probably stumble across the bonuses for something else without actually having to concentrate on them at all. Unless you are aiming for a specific Wonder or UU, there's little reason to concentrate on anything.
My suggestion, made in another Thread Long Ago and Not-So-Far Away, is to First, have Eurekas and Bonuses actually related to what you are researching. Like, Kill A Unit With A Bombard for Square Rigging to give you Frigates, because without Bombard technology, your Frigates will be armed with nothing heavier than 12 pounders or catapults (historically, they had 18 to 24 pounders, the same guns used on land as Siege Weapons in the 17th - 18th centuries). Second, instead of a single 'Bonus' giving 40% or whatever percentage, have 3 Eurekas for each Tech, and whatever order you get them, they give 10%, then 15%, then 20%. So, to get a full 45% Bonus, you have to really concentrate on that Tech's bonus activities.
For examples:
Horseback Riding
Eurekas:
Build Pastures on Two Horse resources
Have 3 Chariot Units
Have a Unit attacked by a Mounted Non-Chariot Unit
In other words, have the required Resource, have a bunch of units that need to be replaced, and have a nasty example of what you need.

Currency
Eurekas:
Have a Mine on a Silver or Gold resource
Have a Trade Route to a foreign city (Civ or City State)
Trade a Resource to/from another Civ.

Engineering
Eurekas:
Build at least one Ancient Walls
Attack a Walled City (Civ or City State)
Have a City with a population of 10 or more.

I hope it's clear: you have to have a demonstrated Need for the Tech and the Resources to exploit the Tech, to cause your population to concentrate their efforts and get the % bonus for the Tech.

I think that would solve the concentration problem with Eurekas and Techs, but the Speed Problem could only be solved by increasing the cost of the Techs (and Civics) so that it actually takes some decent percentage of the total allotted game time to finish the Tech and Civics Trees.

 

[Victoria]

Actually, the "required additional Tech" would be represented by Bombards - heavy cast iron smooth bore cannon which formed the basis (with the short-carriage invented by the English in the late 16th century) for all ship-board cannon until the early 19th century.

It really is potatoes and tomatoes, all smooth bore and all invented around the same time.
Even the massive napoleonic ships had 12 pounders but granted there was some early whoppers for siege.
Pedantically speaking frigates were smaller and built for speed rather than being ships of the line so the armaments were field artillery related but it’s all just a bit of fun and decided when frigates came from quads.

 

[WillowBrook]

I think you should be able to get well over 50% not from your own research, but certainly not from a single boost. Many good ideas are mentioned above - e.g., three different boosts (which could include a non-required tech), a neighbor with the tech, trade route to a civ with the tech, research alliance with someone with the tech, battle with or defeat of unit requiring tech, etc.

But I suspect a system like this is too much much of a change even for an expansion pack; I hope they are considering it for Civ VII.

And @Infixo 's real eurekas mod is great for mixing things up under the current system.

 

[UWHabs]

I think you should be able to get well over 50% not from your own research, but certainly not from a single boost. Many good ideas are mentioned above - e.g., three different boosts (which could include a non-required tech), a neighbor with the tech, trade route to a civ with the tech, research alliance with someone with the tech, battle with or defeat of unit requiring tech, etc.

But I suspect a system like this is too much much of a change even for an expansion pack; I hope they are considering it for Civ VII.

And @Infixo 's real eurekas mod is great for mixing things up under the current system.

Yeah, this is where I stand too. I think the boost right now is about right, but some eureka are too easy to get, and some are too hard. I also don't really like the disconnect where for some techs I can just buy a bunch of troops and get the final boost portion. If I were redesigning the system, I think I would do the following:
-Boosts are not a fixed bonus, however they are a % bonus. So if you get the boost for Horseback Riding, it doesn't simply give you 40% of the tech but gives you a 40% boost when researching it. Thus, the earlier you get the boost, the better.
-There should be multiple paths to a boost. Whether that be an "A OR B" to get the boost, or "A gives you 15% and B gives 25%" or something, that would help give a partial bonus.
-There should be a natural bonus when you have met a civ that has a boost, or when you have a trade route to them.
-Boosts should be semi-randomized, so that you can't plan in the ancient era how to get a modern era boost. Also, there should potentially be optional ways to hide the boosts

The last point would mean that you can't just say, "well, I need one more musketman to get the boost", but instead some games the boost will be to own 3 of them, some maybe you only need to own 2. Maybe some games you need to defeat a soldier with one, or capture a city with one. Maybe some games you actually need to LOSE one in combat to get the boost for the next tech. If you define 4 or 5 potential boosts for each tech, but only 2-3 are active in any game, and you don't find out which they are until you are a tech away or maybe an era away, then it becomes a bit more challenging to plan for them.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It really is potatoes and tomatoes, all smooth bore and all invented around the same time.
Even the massive napoleonic ships had 12 pounders but granted there was some early whoppers for siege.
Pedantically speaking frigates were smaller and built for speed rather than being ships of the line so the armaments were field artillery related but it’s all just a bit of fun and decided when frigates came from quads.

For sure, it's all a wash when a Quadririme hull is magically transformed into a sea-going sailing ship hull sturdy enough to carry 60 tons + of artillery!
And in fact, the Frigate, although it is a well-known and familiar ship type, was simply a commerce escort and raider, with no place in the line of battle during the majority of the period from 17th to 19th centuries. I really wish they'd get that right and make the 'standard' ranged ship type the Ship of the Line, the 1st and 2nd rates of which (100 guns or more) carried the "ship destroying" 32 , 36 and 42 pounder cannon. This was also the type that could pound forts and cities into submission, for which the Frigate was woefully under-gunned.

Using the Ship of the Line would also allow a British/English UU of "The 74", the quintessential and most common Ship of the Line in the Royal Navy: able to out maneuver anything larger and outshoot anything smaller. . .

 

[WillowBrook]

Boosts should be semi-randomized, so that you can't plan in the ancient era how to get a modern era boost. Also, there should potentially be optional ways to hide the boosts

The real eurekas mod handles this well IMO (within the limits of the current system that only allows one boost): the boost is randomly chosen from a pool of possible boosts for that tech or civic, and you can optionally have the boost revealed only for techs/civics that you can currently research. If you happen to do something that meets the requirements for an unrevealed boost, you still get the boost.