Tech pace in HOF games

[AnthonyIII]

Oh, my bad. Thought they were. I forgot they had tons of crusaders, but it'll probably work out. Will continue until I get my leader. It'a a new situation for me, fighting in republic - I've read that it has to be quick wars. Because of that I think I've made some bad choices, when I was fighting the Arabs and had gotten the Zulus and the Mongols in on my side, I made peace because I had gotten what I wanted. Now they're all furious... It's the third time the Arabs are attacking me now... I think they have to wiped out, yes indeed.

 

[CKS]

Wars in republic don't have to be quick, but you need a plan to deal with significant war weariness if you need to stay at war a long time. If you have plenty of luxes, you can survive a lot of war weariness. Don't bail on an alliance if you can help it, though, because it can cause big problems later.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

The notion that wars need to be short and quick if you are a republic is a little deceptive. If you are trying to forego war weariness, an attempt to be short and quick can easily lead you to doing things hastily and net you more weariness than necessary. IMO, it is much better to try to be careful when warring as a republic and to try to score as few WWpoints as possible. And if that means you are slower with your war, then so be it.

How war weariness works is described in this article:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/war_weariness.php

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Lord Emsworth:Is it a reason for planting on this tiles? Can a forest make more than two shields? Yes, I was thinking of that game. Interesting city names and very well played!

Ah, the city names. Well, for one thing the city names for the Maya are broken. At one point you are only offered "New" as a suggestion for a name. So, you have to think of names yourself. I simply use song titles (The Sisters of Mercy) as city names (but I'll have to include all kinds of covers too).

 

[AnthonyIII]

Alright. Boy, should I have listened to you CKS... I won, but with ONLY my capital left! My military consisted of 21 cavalry(infatery/guerillas. Yes, that was my entire military. I had to abandon city after city, pillage my own railroads as I drew myself into my capital and I won in 1862 the turn before the Arabs were gonna launch their last attack. I had left my other cities undefended on purpose to buy myself some time and it worked. Of course, when I won with only 2% of the landmass, my score was pretty bad... This was just awful. I've learned one thing:On archipalego, go settle on the islands as resources will appear! In my con/dom games I rarely go beyond cvalry as my games finish quite soon. But on 20k, the game lasts longer and irond and horses doesn't stand up to rubber and oil... I've also learned to not break treaties and allthough military is not the first priority, it sure isn't stupid to have a moderate defense force.

EDIT: If I want the island to myself, does it affect the score or the finish date when you fight? Is it better to use time to build swords early and then crush the other civ or is it better to wait until the end? Of course, if I wait until the end I will have to build a lot more units... But for trade, maybe it's better to keep them around? As you understand this is a whole new aspect of the game for me, sorry if I ask to many obvious questions...

 

[PaperBeetle]

Game score is roughly calculated as your total territory, measured in tiles, plus your total population plus the number of happy people minus the number of unhappy people, averaged over the whole game. Then add a bonus based on how quickly you finished. And never mind about Future Techs; including them in the per-turn score calculation was a complete waste of 15 minutes of some Firaxis coder's time.
So basically you improve your score by taking more land and population sooner. That also tends to be a strategically good thing to do as well, especially if it means securing your own landmass, so it should eventually translate into a better win date, and score you more that way too.

 

[del62]

AnthonyIII

what level are you playing?

 

[AnthonyIII]

Lord Emsworth:I understand it's not too good to fight in Republic, but my problem here was that I was dow'ed all the time. So my cities were rioting a lot. I tried to be careful and quick the two times I declared, so the biggest problem was the the others wanted to fight me all the time. Do I get war weariess from beeing in a long war that I haven't started also?

That makes sense PaperBeetle.

del62, I play on emperor and have done so for 11 games(quite new to civ-series). I played the map again last nite and when I got the Arabs down to 3 cities early, they were never any threat and I won earlier - in 1838 compared to 1862. I've been reading your HOF attempts as well, trying to pick up tips.

I will attach two saves so people can see the difference between taking them out early - or allow them to become big and strong... (Edit:Of course not for all games or genreally speaking, should have pointed that out. But in this is game, and if played by a beginner like myself it turns out bad.)And if someone can give me some constructive criticism I'll be very happy. I could not find the end save of the 1862 win, so the one attached is from 1848-you can see I'm in trouble when getting invaded. It ended with the arabs taking all my cities but the capital. Any advice would be good really... You should just know that there's few workers because they were captured in the 1848 game. I had a lot. Also it's the Zulus bashing the Mongols not me. Also what do you think of my starting position, good enough?

 

[del62]

Anthony, one useful thing in war that helps are bombard units, the byzantines have a special one of these that you can use to hit units on the coast, the trick is to try to get as many hit points of your foe, before you make an attack with a normal unit, so build a stack of catapults/ trebs / cannon / artillery and use them to reduce the hit point of your enemy, and as the byzantines use your dromons.

This means losing less units so less war weariness.

Keep your workers out of range or defended in war and try not to lose cities as these seem to have a particularly negative effect during war on weariness, also only enter your enemies land with purpose as troops including boats in their territory contribute to weariness.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Hmm, OK. That is a big "note to self" right there. I only used the dromon to scout the ocean, I've never really used boats in my warfare, not even in con/dom games. So no wonder WW went sky high as I had pikes fighting infantery and guerillas. I think I had so bad units because I had no strategic resources, only iron, and chose the wonder way of the tech tree. But I'm aware that I played very poorly on the 1848 sav. I totally neglected my military.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Lord Emsworth:I understand it's not too good to fight in Republic, but my problem here was that I was dow'ed all the time. So my cities were rioting a lot. I tried to be careful and quick the two times I declared, so the biggest problem was the the others wanted to fight me all the time. Do I get war weariess from beeing in a long war that I haven't started also?

You get war weariness if you accumulate too many WWpoints. And it doesn't really matter how long you have been warring, or if you started or not. OK, if you are DoW'ed you start out with -30 WWpoints (there are a few exceptions), whereas if you DoW you start out with 0 WWpoints, but that is not a difference in principle.

So the answer to the question:
"Do I get war weariess from beeing in a long war that I haven't started also?"
is that it depends. It may be so. It may not be so.

 

[Spoonwood]

I feel it hard to say all that much accurately without seeing intermediate saves, however, I think I can properly say a few things...

You have very nice food for your start. That said, I don't think I'd even consider playing a start with a capital with less then 12 tiles which can get produce a shield as this 10 tile city site. Settling on the hill on this map would have given you 14 productive tiles for this game, so I would have done that. Build the Oracle before the Pyramids (unless you SGL the Pyramids early, I've assumed hand-building in that comment). It costs less and gives you the same culture. Build Cope's before Bach's. You can sometimes build Bach's after Shake's even (though I wouldn't do this with Cope's). You almost surely would have had both Cope's and Bach's if you had built Cope's first. Is this a continents map? If playing for the HoF play either pangea or archipelago. There may exist some extremely rare exception where continents makes sense, but I don't really know of any.

Prioritizing The Great Lighthouse on an archipelago map can make sense if you can trade for ivory. On this map, you simply couldn't. So, it would have made more sense to build the Museum of Mausollos instead (same culture, it costs less, and it always triggers a GA for the Byzantines). Your research seems a bit slow to me, but I can't tell you exactly what you could have done better here.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Aha, okay Lord Emsworth. Thanks mate.

Spoonwood:Hmm. Very good point on the 12 shield comment. I did build the Pyramids, then rushed the GL. I thought the Oracle was not that good, so I've never really bothered with it. Will do from now on. Hmm, I think I've just been so focused on Bach's and Shake's that I've kind of forgotten about the other ones. Because Bach's and Shake's are the must have's, right? I think I built the Lighthouse, because I was out of wonders to build, got beaten to the Hanging Gardens, I think. It's actuallu an arcepalego map, but yes, it was a little strange. Yes, I know my research is slow and that seems to be the problem with my play style... Hmm. I'm not sure why it's like that either. Must find out!

You may be interested to know that I downloaded your 20k Standard Demi-God 4000BC save(this one:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=353061) and it's really good fun. I think I am winning for the first time, on my third attempt at any demi-god map! I read the first page of your thread and then decided I would try by myself and only look if I really get in trouble. I think I'm doing OK for a beginner at demi-god. I've followed your advices in this thread and built infrastructure before military(even after what happened yesterday in the save above!) and it look like I'm winning with a military consisting of 4 UU's, some warriors and some guerillas! I've only had two wars, the Aztecs never landed on my island, I captured a Zulu town on my island and had two japanese towns flip. I've also not been building wealth until after university and libraries and that paid off. The only problem was in the start of the MA when my research was a bit slow. In the IA I kept all techs between 9 and 4 turns. I was ahead on tech, I think it's equal now. I will attach my save and if you want, please feel free to critisize or give me some hints. I've had no SGL's, I think(let me check)and I lost the Universal Suffrage by only 1 turn - then I switched to Theory of Evolution and got that instead.

 

[Spoonwood]

There really aren't "must haves". Shake's comes the closest since it gives you 8 cpt, and it increases the number of tiles your city can work.

1. You never need a courthouse in your capital for any reason (unless you go Commie, I think, though I've never done that so I don't know). It doesn't do anything.

2. Cash-rush/short-rush any cultural buildings you put in your capital if you can.

3. A harbor in your capital does have its benefits in a 20k game. That said in a 20k, only put a harbor if you don't really have any other culture to build. A harbor doesn't produce any culture.

4. I didn't know that map had two rubber sources on the home island (we didn't get that far, I let Pacioli play it by himself after a certain point, as I didn't think I had all that much more to help him with there). I'd hook them up.

5. Shaka has both extra iron and extra coal. Those probably could have gotten traded for a while ago, and you could have railed your empire to increase production, especially in the capital.

6. Develop all cow squares first always.

7. Generally speaking irrigate brown, and mine green.

8. You could use more workers.

9. Do you have a medieval age save? From the looks of your capital now, I believe you could have had more shields per turn in the capital after Engineering (via mining/forestry), and especially after Shake's. Once you complete Shake's (which functions like a hospital among other things), it works best to maximize the number of land squares the capital can use by adding workers into the capital (or 20k city). It also can help to have some workers just fortified in the capital waiting to clean post-Shake's.

10. Don't even think about building wealth in any city until you have the Heroic Epic. Really, don't ever build wealth anywhere unless in any extremely corrupt city, or you know it works out better than building something else and can fully explain why it's better.

11. In general, buy luxuries.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Yes, you've told me before about the courthouse. I really didn't have anything else to build when I put it up or I used as a prebuild for a wonder I didn't get. Anyway, I'll keep that in mind. Short-rush, is that the same as pop-rush? Harbour was put in for the same reason as the courthouse. What? I haven't hooked up the rubber? Embarrassing. I thought since they were on tiles already roaded/mined in the ancient age they were already hooked up? Yes, I know Shaka has extra iron, in fact the first war he declared on me, was because I settled between two japanese cities on the iron island to the right of our island. So I had iron for a little while but lost it before I got harbours. I did buy iron from him via trade, I think 2x20 turns. However, I could not use it for anything. I'm pretty sure he must have gotten the extra coal relatively late in the game, because I always checked to see if there was some spare coal available for trade. I don't use civ-assist, so maybe I've missed it. Oh well, to bad if that's the case. I did develop the cows first, 90% sure! Advice 7: OK, noted and remembered. I had much more workers in the AA, but after I had improved and roaded every square I disbanded around 20 because of unit costs. I also see where I made a mistake in the early game:when I downloaded your and Pacioli's 30AD save - I saw you had always built workers first in the newly founded cities - and no warriors. I went warrior-worker in every city up until city 14. Should have dropped the warriors.

I do have a medieval save, 410AD is attached. I'm sure I could have more shields, as I'm still learning. And yes, I normally keep a stack of 10-11 workers in the capital or 1 square outside.

About wealth, it seems clear I haven't fully understood it yet. It does much more for research after the Heroic Epic? Is that why the Heroic Epic is so important? Will buy luxuries from now.

Thanks for your response Spoonwood. Appreciate it.

 

[Rodrig0]

1. You never need a courthouse in your capital for any reason (unless you go Commie, I think, though I've never done that so I don't know). It doesn't do anything.

Even in communism the capital has no corruption, so a courthouse or police station are useless.

Short-rush, is that the same as pop-rush?

No, short-rush means disbanding a unit on top of a city to add a few shields and reduce the cost of rushing, either pop-rush or cash-rush. Rushing anything from zero costs twice.

About wealth, it seems clear I haven't fully understood it yet. It does much more for research after the Heroic Epic? Is that why the Heroic Epic is so important?

No idea here... maybe he meant Economics? Wealth is just converting shields to cash, 1 gold per 4 shields. After economics, it's 1 gold per 2 shields. And the money produced is added directly to the treasury, nothing of it goes to research. So a city producing 20 shields, making wealth, would add 5 gpt to the treasury before economics, and 10 gpt after.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . Short-rush, is that the same as pop-rush? . . . .

No. Rodrig0 has already covered this, but I'll expound a little. If you start with an empty shield box and a cash-rush government, and want to rush a project, the shields cost 8 gold per shield. If there's at least one shield in the bin, the cost drops to 4 gold per shield. So let's say you're rushing a 100-shield item. If you start from empty, you can rush it for 800 gold (8 x 100). OTOH, if you disband one worker in the town, that gets you two shields in the bin, and the cost to rush drops to 392 gold (4 x 98).

 

[AnthonyIII]

Excellent - thanks Aabraxan and Rodrigo! I did the masterpiece of disbanding 20 workers and 8 warriors out in the field... That's a lot of short-rushed shields wasted....

 

[PaperBeetle]

That's not short rushing! Well, not exactly. Short rushing is all about switching your builds during the rush process so as to reduce wasted shields, nothing about minimising the extra cost of rushing on an empty box (though that is important too). An example, typical in a 20k game...

Your city makes 20 shields per turn, you recently got Construction, and so want to build colosseum, and you've got a fair pile of cash available.
Rushing it straight up would cost 2*4*120 = 960g, which is crazy money. So you could start by putting in a turn of production, or chopping a forest there. But lets do as Rodrig0 suggests and disband some junk unit there, like one of your old axes. Okay, now you've got 2 shields in the box, rushing colosseum will cost you 4*(120-2) = 472g. Better.
But what about the 20 shields you will make there on this turn? They just get wasted. So instead, you can choose market as your build, rush that for 4*(100-2)=392g, and then switch the build to colosseum. You rushed the colosseum so that it is 20 shields short of completion, hence the name 'short rush'. On the interturn, the city's normal 20 shield production comes in on top of the paid-for shields, and the colosseum completes.

 

[Aabraxan]

That's not short rushing! . . . . <snip>

Oops. I guess I've misunderstood short-rushing all this time. For that matter, I think I may have made this same mistake before. Thanks for the correction.