Technology Priorities

[Chandrasekhar]

From the start of the game, the player has to choose which techs to research now and which ones to research later. Some techs are obviously more valuable at the moment than others, and these get picked first. A player that thinks ahead will make a tech further down the line his goal, and will work toward it with his research. I've made a diagram here of the techs that I prefer to work toward as I progress through both FfH and vanilla Civ.

Many people believe the late game to be dull in comparison to the early, and there has been much discussion about how to spice it up. My main goal in making this diagram is to pinpoint differences between FfH and vanilla Civ that make FfH's late game bog down a bit. Only after diagnosing a problem can we begin to cure it. The following diagrams show the destination techs only; the techs that are required are assumed to have been researched on the way, and the ones that are specifically required based on starting location (i.e. Animal Husbandry if you start near cows) are also assumed to have been obtained earlier.

Civilization IV Tech Tree
Vanilla Civilizaiton IV Tech Priorities:
1) Pottery- You need cottages to get anywhere in tech.
2) Monotheism- A religion is helpful to have. Sometimes I am beat to it, requiring me to go for another religion. However, I most often get this one.
3) Priesthood- The Oracle is useful, as are temples.
4) Literature- The Great Library is also a nice wonder to get, and the extra benefits of Writing, Alphabet, and tech trading also help.
5) Bronze Working- I don't favor the axeman rush, but having a strong melee unit is important as a defensive measure, if you don't want your improvements pillaged by an aggressive AI.
6) Currency- Markets allow the first big happycap increase in vanilla Civ. Trade routes aren't bad, either.
7) Music- I like getting the free great artist, and I tend to be far enough ahead in tech by now to get it. Not very high priority, but it's what I do.
8) Civil Service- By themselves, irrigated farms and Bureaucracy aren't particularly useful, but they can be good, and I'll need them for a later tech.
9) Optics- I like to be the first to circumnavigate the globe just to deny rivals that, and the AI beelines towards this tech, so I need it here to beat them. Also, it leads to good techs.
10) Education- It takes some beakers to get here, but it pays off. Universities are nice, and Oxford in my capital does wonders.
11) Liberalism/Astronomy- I then go for Liberalism, get Astronomy as my free tech (cross-continental trading is lucrative, and yields good resources), and adopt Free Speach, and often Free Religion, too.
12) Printing Press- I have quite a few villages and towns by this time, so combining this tech with Free Speach gets my beakers really going.
13) Chemistry- Grenadiers thoroughly own at this point, and I sometimes assimilate an unfortunate neighbor when getting them. Of course, the speeding of Scientific Method also helps.
14) Physics- The Great Library is obsoleted on the way here, but the free GS makes up for it. Uranium also gives decent yields.
15) Economics- It takes a lot of techs to get here, but most of them are cheap by comparison at this point, and the GM/Free Trade combo makes it worthwhile.
16) Democracy- I run a cottage-heavy empire, so Universal Suffrage and Emancipation are very nice to have. My hammers really start going up here, allowing me to expand on infrastructure.
17) Biology- Extra food from farms is real nice, especially without the magical terriforming that I'll bet nine out of ten FfH players have begun to take for granted.
18) Rocketry- For reference, I use the Rifling/Artillery method of getting this tech, leaving Flight out of it entirely. I also start to make my move toward victory at this point, starting the Apollo Program here. Most of my techs from here on are geared towards this, not towards increasing the efficiency of my empire.
19) Industrialism- It takes a lot of beakers to get to this point, by any standards, but hooking up aluminum makes the Apollo Program much faster to complete. Tanks aren't bad, either.
20) Fusion- I don't have any set way of using the free GE from this, but it still gets me a lot of techs I need.
21) Mop Up- At this point, I just finish getting the techs I need to complete the Space Race, then go for future tech. The fate of the game rests on hammers at this point.

Feel free to post some differing points on your own vanilla strategies here. Many of you have probably given up vanilla Civ by now (I mostly have), but post away regarding the strategies you used. I might update this post to include divergent priorities.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

FfH Tech Tree
Note: I prefer to go for the Order in my FfH games. Those of you that prefer different religions may take a very different path at times.
FfH Tech Priorities:
1) Education- Again, cottages are needed to get anywhere in Civ IV.
2) Writing- It's a tough call, but I can usually manage to get this tech first. I prefer to get Code of Laws because of its expense and use for getting the Order. On higher difficulty levels, I just skip this entirely until much later.
3) Mysticism- God King is enormously useful in pumping out those warriors and settlers for early expansion. Extra gold is also never a bad thing.
4) Orders from Heaven (optional)- I know it's a long way, but keep in mind that I don't list techs that are linked to resources in this list. I'll generally get these as I expand, but in between them I work toward the Order.
5) Priesthood- Priests are good, and Religious Discipline busts open the happicap even more.
6) Knowledge of the Ether- The placement of this varies, but genereally, if I have even one mana node, I research this to be able to start to terriform my deserts.
7) Trade- Extra trade routes, the foreign trade tech, and tech trading enabled. Nice tech for a cheap price.
8) Sanitation- Extra food from farms (though I build few), and the removal of jungles is very useful
9) Mathematics- This is mostly for the Bazaar of Mammon, which is very useful in the city that founds the Order.
10) Arcane Lore- I favor cottages in this game, as well. More hammers means more infrastructure and more possible expansion.
11) Guilds- I love the Eyes and Ears network to fill in the numerous techs that I skip over, and the accompanying civic isn't bad, either.
12) Commune with Nature- Druids make just about every city a good city with their terraforming. Very important tech, here.
13) Righteousness (optional)- I get Sphener, Paladins, and my preferred Civ's unique hero (Chalid) by going for this. Expensive, but good for when a Civ declares war on me, which often happens around this point.
14) Mop Up- After this, there really aren't many useful techs that I need. What minor techs I passed up are given by the Eyes and Ears Network, and the more expensive ones just provide units that I don't need. I generally wipe out a couple of Civs at this point, before deciding that I'll inevitably win if I continue, at which point I quit and start up a new one.

This part might relate a bit more to you forumgoers, so feel free to post where your path differs from mine. I'll be posting a comprehensive analysis soon, which I'll put in the third post.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

So, let's see what techs were skipped on the main path for lack of usefulness, firstly.

Vanilla Civ IV Skipped Techs
Early Game
Archery (48)- I prefer to engage enemies out in the field. Axemen can do this more effectively.
Horseback Riding (201)- Poweful unit, but I rarely have a need for them.
Drama (241)- I prefer to play Catherine (a culteral leader), so culture is rarely a problem. Other leaders may need it more. It has two optional dependencies, but I usually take the other options (Code of Laws, Literature).
Mid-game
Divine Right (964)- Expensive for its time, and gives two things that I don't generally need (Islam and Versailles). One optional dependency, but I always take the alternative (Philosophy).
Military Tradition (1608)- It just doesn't have anything I use. Ironic, as I prefer to play Russia.
Communism (2251)- I don't usually build an empire so large that State Property would be better than Free Trade. Spies also aren't all that useful to me.
Late Game
Medicine (3618)- I rarely have health problems that grocers and supermarkets can't solve. I sometimes research this, but it's very rare.
Flight (4020)- Especially ironic, as I tend to win by launching a space ship.
Mass Media (2894)- Again, not much usage. I actually often build the Eiffel Tower, making broadcast towers manually built quite useless.

FfH Skipped Techs
Early Game
Warefare (3rd Tier)- The design of this tree means that almost every tech is absolutely required to get another one. This is one of the few that doesn't have any particularly useful successors. I sometimes get it when I'm taking over a Civ or two before quitting.
Archery (3rd Tier)- The archery line is useful for some purposes, but those purposes aren't mine.
Mid-game
Horseback Riding (4th Tier)- Horsemen aren't a very powerful unit, in my opinion.
Drama (4th Tier)- Again, I prefer to play a creative Civ in FfH, so others may find it more useful.
Poisons (4th Tier)- Firstly, the Malakim (which I play) don't get assassins, so this tech is useless to them. Second, assassins aren't particularly good in the first place.
Military Strategy (4th Tier)- Doesn't really have any effects that my style can use.
Monarchy (4th Tier)- I'll occasionally get it for the Bone Palace, but not very often.
Divination, Necromancy (4th Tier)- It's extremely rare that I build the nodes they allow. I use Alteration and Elementalist nodes more, and as they allow Sorcery and Summoning without these, then these are the ones I skip.
Deception, Honor (5th Tier)- I've heard Kael say that he likes the idea of Honor and Deception off Trade, and I can deal with that, but I rarely get either of them.
Bowyers (5th Tier)- Again, the archery line isn't particularly useful to me, so I skip it.
Constitution (5th Tier)- the effects of this Civic don't suit my playstyle all that well- at least not well enough for me to spend the beakers to get it.
Alchemy (5th Tier)- the AI gets Typhoid Mary way early, but even if they didn't I wouldn't build her. The beaker bonus from labs might be nice, but that just means that I get this tech during mop up, if I get it at all.
Stirrups (6th Tier)- Horse archers are poweful and all, but I really don't need them enough to justify the beaker cost.
Animal Mastery (6th Tier)- Beastmasters... not too useful when there aren't any animals left. Maybe the Fire phase will change that. Time will tell.
Celerity (6th Tier)- It's somewhat useful for a late game conquest with mighty heroes, but not enough to put it on my list of priorities.
Feudalism (6th Tier)- I don't really like any civic that cuts down on food, and I'm generally starting to stretch my new happicap at this point, so dungeons are out.
Late Game
Medicine (7th Tier)- Public healers isn't too bad, but the tech just lacks anything else particularly useful.
Mercantilism (7th Tier)- The building isn't bad, but the civic isn't any good, and the lack of other functionality dooms it.
Liberalism (7th Tier)- This is understandably less useful for the founder of the Order than it is for the Grigori.
Blasting Powder (7th Tier)- I liked the Arquebusiers as national units more. As is, they don't really have a specific niche. Cannons might be useful, but heroes tend to make them less so.
Soul Debt (7th Tier)- Soul forge is an interesting concept. I never get a chance to use it.
Ethereal Call (8th Tier)- Rites of Oghma is way too expensive, and it helps my foes as much as it helps me. No, thank you.
Omniscience (9th Tier)- If I haven't explored the vast majority of the map by now, I have no idea what I've been doing this whole time.
Pass Through the Ether (9th Tier)- Obsidian Gates are alright, but the wonder that mass-produces them requires the most useless mana in the game. It's just not worth the cost.
Armageddon (10th Tier)- I'd rather not destroy the world while I still live on it.
Warhorses, Metal Casting, Precision, Rage, Armored Cavalry, Mithril Working, Domesticate Camels, Lames, Mithril Weapons, Domesticate Elephants, Divine Essence- Lump these into groups of two or three, and make them both branch off of useful techs and lead to useful techs as well, and I might consider the powerful units worthwhile to get.

Conclusion: the early game has many, many techs that help a growing empire greatly. Due to the structure of FfH, these techs branch out into several separate branches, some useful, some not. This is compounded by the fact that these branches have virtually no reliance on each other apart from the techs that they branch from. Therefore, useful tech paths get researched while the useless ones are neglected.

Vanilla Civ IV had two solutions for this. One was that the useful abilities were scattered among diverse branches. Iron working was a military tech, yet it is needed to remove jungles, an economic necessity. Civil service was a tech clearly on the economic/religious branch, yet it allowed Macemen, the most powerful unit of its time.

The other was the cross-dependency of different branches. One could easily generalize that the metalworking branch was separate from the religious branch, which was separate from the economic branch, but they all required, to some degree, each others' techs to advance.

If Fall from Heaven does not implement these solutions to some degree, then most of the tech branches will inevitably remain unused while others remain vital. It is the only desireable solution to this problem. FfH can fufill this without necessarily losing its flavor. For example, if a tech in the economic branch was to only require a metalworking tech three tiers down, and a horse riding tech two tiers down, it would still retain the specialization factor that makes FfH unique.

Sorry if this seems like a rant. I just see FfH's "cool factor" going up and up, but its quality as a mod can only go so far without making some requisite changes in the fundamentals of its mechanics. I'd just like to make it clear that Kael & co.'s mod here is clearly the best and most innovative to date, and that I love the work they've done. I'm just trying to help in my own way.

 

[Jono]

Looking forward to ranting about high costs of techs .

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Second post is updated with my thoughts on the FfH tech tree. I actually don't think the techs cost much at all... at least the ones that I make it a priority to go for.

 

[Jono]

You've pretty much neglected military in FfH.

 

[Nero's fire]

hmm, you don't seem to state when you get more militaristic techs (or which) like archery or bronze working. My personal strategy in playing is much different then yours however. I prefer having trade routes and scientists be able get me techs and favor farms as an improvement over cottage so techs like trade I tend to go for first. Further I think that smithing is a very important tech. Forges are great for any civilization and they tend to be one of the first things I build in a new city. They increase happyness and more importantly are one of the tow buildings that increase production. Likewise I tend to go for Machinary for that building and the very nice heavy crossbowman.

I think the end techs focus too much on the military, which is nice if your going for a domination victory. I was always a fan of the space race victory in Vanilla, it made the techs in the modern age much more important. The tower of mastery is neat but it doesn't require much of a variety of techs like the space shuttle does. As for a cultural victory, I don't go for them much but there doesn't seem to be any reason to go past the religous techs and drama other then liberalism.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

The militaristic techs are generally gotten by the Eyes and Ears Network, for me. They aren't useful enough for me to get them when they're expensive, before I build the EEN. Further, they don't have any useful side-benefits like in vanilla Civ.

I've posted a list of techs I generally skip in both games, and a conclusion will be typed up shortly.

Edit: forgot to mention this- keep in mind that I said that the techs which reveal/allow working of resources are generally got as I go along. Bronze Working and sometimes Iron Working fall into this category.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

That's that. The first three posts are as complete as they'll ever be. Feel free to say what you think of what I've said. This issue has been bugging me for awhile now, so I just wanted to get it off my chest.

 

[Jono]

Well, I can't argue with you about Stirrups, even as Hippus I delay the research of it till, well, whenever it take 20 turns or so.

 

[Sureshot]

ya stirrups is a huge annoyance for me with regard to ever wanting the mounted line. it costs double what the tech for rangers does, and the units you get are worse, require other tech lines, and require a resource... rangers require none of those, come with a cheap tech, and are far more powerful and get amazing abilities

 

[Jono]

Seriously, it should have additional bonuses if it's going to remain as is.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

ya stirrups is a huge annoyance for me with regard to ever wanting the mounted line. it costs double what the tech for rangers does, and the units you get are worse, require other tech lines, and require a resource... rangers require none of those, come with a cheap tech, and are far more powerful and get amazing abilities

And I guess recon units are getting an even more amazing ability, invisibility in some form? That unit line is getting outta line.

Oh yes, the thread. This is a wonderful thread. I have high hopes for it. But it is going to take some time and thought to write up anything as comprehensive as Chand. In the meantime...

Education: Cottages. Get cottages up as fast as possible and ... well ... honestly, everything else can wait. I used to be a farm guy. But early farms are generally counter-productive. It does not help so much to race from population 1 to population 3, which is the normal happycap at my skill level. (Capitol happpycap = 4). Once you reach that happycap, farms do nothing for you until religion is invented. Cottages, in comparison, will invent that religion for you.

Mysticism: God-King. Costs nothing and makes worker/settler builds fast.

Exploration: Depends on the ttactical situation. If the Ragers are a local problem, sometimes you have to specifically take Exploration for the Move promotion. (But usually it can wait. The Ragers are far to easy in FfH compared to Vanilla civ. Vanilla Civ comes at you with Scouts with Movement 2. That makes protecting workers with Movement 1 Warriors a bit dicier. Since Goblins are Movement 1, I now have no problems building up my Cottages even in the middle of most Barbarian surges. The Barbs are simply too easy to intercept and destroy. You have plenty of time to do so.)

Leaves/Runes/OctoLords: Whichever you prefer. The only time I am not the first civ to invent the first religion is if Ljo is in the game - maybe - I haven't had Ljo selected as a random opponent in my 0.15 games yet. And I have not played all the civs yet. But so far the ones I play are all able to found religions and be the first to do so.

Pick a Style: At this point I go for whatever techs strike my fancy that game. This is going to sound snotty or hyper-critical, but it is not meant to sound that way. It is being said to underscore a sense of dissapointment.

I say 'pick a style' at this stage, because quite frankly I don't think there is any way to lose the game at this stage. So develop magic if that's what you want to do. Etcetera. If you've invented the first religion in the game, the game is already "won". I've never seen an AI civ build a mid-game realm that would pose a serious threat to my mid-game realm, not after a fast Cottage-to-Religion start.

But the game is till fun at this stage, because generally one or two AI civs will want to war upon you. However, once you bring them to the peace table you will have grown so powerful that AI civs will generally be reluctant to declare upon you. Your neighbors have generally suffered from early hostility with you. More powerful AI civs lie to far away to declare on you at this stage .. and even if they do they cannot reach you efficiently. So development can occur as long as wanted. Choose yuor time to scour the world of enough enemies to Dominate

... Except for me I usually don't bother to play the game out to the end. It's a forgone conclusion ... there is no thrill in spending the time to run the number of turns required. It's more fun to start a new game where uncertainty exists once again. So that's my dissapointment ... all those imaginative end-game features go unused, because the game's in the bag no more than 25% up the tech tree. Now that's why I say it's a dissapointment... all that imaginative work should get into play more often.

Of course, some changes are already planned that will reduce some of the concerns. Take dogpiling, for example. When the dogpiling aspect is added to the AI, that will add a much uncertainty to mid and end-game wars. But I doubt they will fix all concerns. So I am very glad Chand started this thread. Changes to the tech tree can result in profound (and unintended) ways, so the topic will need a lot of time for brainstormsing.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Wow, I get the impression that you guys don't really like fighting so much. (Or possibly that you find conquest so easy that you don't need the fun units.)
Here's my impressions, and I'm fully open to the possibility that I don't play as effeciently as I might.
Disclaimer, I play monarch or emperor, random civ, and normal speed.

Initially I focus on expansion, and I'll probably go agriculture/animal or calendar depending on what's nearby. Exploration and ancient chants usually next. Then usually Bronze working cause a nearby AI will be eyeing me or I'll have tough guys to upgrade, and I want to se the copper so I can grab some. Then Education (though I've started aiming for it sooner on your suggestions)
Next my area is getting crowded so I'll go sailing if there's likely islands or warfare if I need it. Sanitation is often a high priority to me if I'm in a jungle area of course.
Runes and Leaves are honestly kinda boring to me, so I'll try to found one of the others soon, then my priorities will be iron, magic, priests, Heroes, big boats if needed, then whichever powerful units I have experienced people to upgrade into.

My more or less neglected techs are:
Cartography & trade--by the time I get these, it's because the foreign trade penalty is starting to bite, and I usually trade for them (ironically) Trade is useful, I just want other stuff.
Festivals and drama--it just doesn't occur to me to go for a culture win, though I do go back for festivals when I capture animals or can't keep people happy with resources.
Horses--some games I never get stirrup. I think the whole line would be more viable if the prerequesites from armored cavalry (Lames) was removed or reduced.
Archers--very rarely a priority til my mages start getting whacked by shadows, and then rushed to precision. Sad, too, cause I used to love flurries.
Tracking slows down my research into recon, since I can't see getting it quick even if I wanted weres. I think it needs something more, don't know what.
Most of those techs just under arhery ones. I didn't know where Eyes/Ears was, I never research guilds, rarely liberalism, mercanilism only if grigori, etc. I'm just biased against certain civics, I guess, or in a rut.

Any techs needed to get summoners and arch mages I sometimes avoid, but usually rush through.

Of the very late techs, omnisceience (sp) golems, and armageddon I avoid til nothing left, or sometimes even then.

 

[Nero's fire]

Not looking at what techs are better or worse for my playstyle I think a few techs are absolutely critical to all civs and others are not even worthwile to any.

The Good-
Education As stated before I love farms and even I see the need for it early. It takes a long time to get to construction and cottages fill the void till then. Further it is a required tech for a lot of the other good techs.

Mysticism Hands down God king is the best early civic. Your civilization is small, means virtually no city distance maintanance or civic upkeep and your capital IS your civilization. Further elder concils are really nice boost to tech early on. Ironicly even playing the Grigori this is a high priority. So no worshipping gods but its alright to worship me?

TradeI am so surprised to hear most people ignoring trade. I finds its a cheap way to get +1 free trade route which can really help a large civ with reasearch. Free trade makes it two free trade routes and not having to take the penelty to happyness. The inn can be really nice for cities on the coast. And that's ignoring the ability to trade with other civilizations.

Sanitation+1 food for farms is good enough reason for civs (Lanun being the only exception) but cutting down jungles is even more important then cutting down trees.

Pass through the etherThis is the only late game tech that gives a worthwile building. Compared with the earlier techs this one isn't really critical it was picked because by end game you have more then enough of the final tier units that those techs are a matter of choice. While the wonder is nice it isn't necisary but the building is needed in order to fight overseas wars, or get troops to the front line fast. By this time distance should be an increasing problem in warfare. If your peaceful then this tech nets you +1 trade route.

The Bad
Entire horsemen pathI hope there is no explanation needed

Animal Mastery I agree with Chandrasekhar Beastmen serve no practical purpose. Even the toughest animals can be taken down with ease by a ranger and hunters can with some upgrades.

Archery line I was torn wether or not to mention this. Hunters do the work of archers early on, late game when crossbowmen and eventually heavy crossbow man become availible the archery tech is the only tech you need and by then it should be easy enough to trade for.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Animal Mastery I agree with Chandrasekhar Beastmen serve no practical purpose. Even the toughest animals can be taken down with ease by a ranger and hunters can with some upgrades.

There will probably be stronger animals in the future, but even now, beastmen are able to perch on mountian tops and snipe enemy soldiers. Also, you might want to upgrade those experienced rangers to a str 13 unit!

And after the game I'm playing now, I'll add that archery units are quite useful if the enemy has many assassains and you are running around with melee. Although I suppose recon are almost as good.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I generally research the archery line for one reason- Celerity. Getting blitz means that my Valin and Sphener can wipe out as many enemies per turn as they have movement points (almost). Once you have blitz and march, you're set.

Pass through the etherThis is the only late game tech that gives a worthwile building. Compared with the earlier techs this one isn't really critical it was picked because by end game you have more then enough of the final tier units that those techs are a matter of choice. While the wonder is nice it isn't necisary but the building is needed in order to fight overseas wars, or get troops to the front line fast. By this time distance should be an increasing problem in warfare. If your peaceful then this tech nets you +1 trade route.

I like this tech, somewhat. Give it a unit (invisible/teleporting unit carrier?), and I'd make it somewhat of a priority.

There will probably be stronger animals in the future, but even now, beastmen are able to perch on mountian tops and snipe enemy soldiers. Also, you might want to upgrade those experienced rangers to a str 13 unit!

Yes, I'm thinking that once the stronger animals get in, then these features will make Beastmen somewhat desirable. I might suggest making it so that you have to upgrade lvl 6 rangers to get them. I just love that mechanic with the immortals, and I think it could be nice here, too. The terraforming oppertunities of the recon line also make it more useful. I think the sentry promotion might be more useful to me if I didn't use the Malakim ('cause lightbringers get it for free). Giving something else to the tracking tech might not be a bad idea. I'd say it's not too bad a line, other lines need work more.

Wow, I get the impression that you guys don't really like fighting so much. (Or possibly that you find conquest so easy that you don't need the fun units.)

Yeah, late game wars are easy enough with heroes that the really cool units cost more than they're worth. It's easier, cheaper, quicker, and more powerful to get Sphener than it is to get Spartaiatoi.