Technology tree - gunpowder and saltpeter

[Trinity]

As we know today, having a resource of saltpeter isn't necessary for making gunpowder, or modern cleaner versions of it, or explosives.

For example, effective in 1939, Germany was cut off from its supply of saltpeter from Chile, yet that didn't stop them from making explosives or gunpowder. They made nitric acid from ammonia, then reacted it with potassium or sodium hydroxide for gun powder. The traditional method for making nitric acid was from reacting sulfuric acid with saltpeter. Their process eliminated the need for saltpeter.

In Civ III however, you need saltpeter to make any military unit above swordsman and knight. This should be fine until one researches a tech that isn't in the game called Advanced Chemistry. It should come immediately after Refining and eliminate the need for the saltpeter resource.

The trade off should be if one does not have a source of saltpeter, advanced military units (infantry, mech infantry, tanks, modern armor) should require additional support costs (I'm thinking 0.25 for "free units", or 1.25 for non-free units).

In my most recent game my civilization just peaked. I'm having to go to war to get saltpeter, by a surprise attack against my friend Greece, who has the only source of saltpeter on the continent. Every other civilization has one or more sources. They won't trade it even for 100 gpt, either that or they don't have a harbor open for trade. If I don't win this war, it's game over.

There is one other source available, but I have to colonize this other continent and pray the Iroquois don't get to the resource first. It's near their territory.

Not that the gods at Firaxis are reading this forum.....

My troops are now massing at the border. I don't have enough to hold cities, so it will be a game of killing the military and pillaging shield producing improvements. Perhaps razing cities and creating new settlements. Alexander has a republic, so I might try demanding cities to insult him and maybe he'll declare war on me. All for this one source, and watch it deplete later. This is going to be messy and really hurt my world image.

Does the AI have to deal with war weariness? I have a monarchy.

 

[God]

You only need saltpeter for cavalry, musketmen, cannons and frigates. You don't need it for any industrial era units or after.

In the civlopedia it mentions that by the time riflemen come around people don't need saltpeter anymore because making guns is easy now.

 

[Mr Spice]

It is entirely possible to survive without salpeter, but you will experience a severe lack of good attack units since you can´t build cavalry. It is the only attack unit between knights/longbowmen and tanks and it still needs salpeter even after riflemen get availible.

 

[warpstorm]

Does the AI have to deal with War Weariness. You betcha! It's my favorite trick. Wait till they're a Democracy (give it and Communism to them if you have to) and then go to war as a Republic or Monarchy. Nine times out of ten, they'll go commy on you and implode.

 

[Trinity]

And I'll miss out on my Musketeers, which aren't too shabby on the attack either. We are in 1280 AD now, so I'll either have to go to war or somehow survive for another 650 years, and during that time may be subject to military blackmail.

Survival strategy -- build lots of pikemen and knight. Alexander doesn't have a source of horses. I have all 4 on the continent.

This start location is probably the worst I've had. I checked the map in the editor, and I don't have coal either. But I do have uranium. Unfortunately, I built a city right on top of it. Do I still get that resource?

I've got the save game, so I'll try a couple of different strategies from this point.

 

[sealman]

I have played two games without saltpeter. My first, which I lost and my most recent. I am Rome and on a huge island all to myself. I have everythign except saltpeter and luxuries. I went to war with Babylon to grab their hordes of gems and silks, plus their source of saltpeter. I won the war sending 2 knights at each of thier calvary units. It was blody but I had the numbers.
Kind of pointless in the long run because I got tanks shortly after the war. But those luxaries sure help now.

 

[MuddyOne]

You will have access to the resource if you build a city on it.

 

[Jaybe]

Some resources are sorta 'generic', meaning they just represent an ability to build (whatever). Both Saltpeter and Aluminum (at least) fall into this category.

Firaxis has changed the laws of nature slightly, just as they have abstracted other facets of the game. If you think it is 'realistic', please have your head examined.

Such abstractions don't detract from my enjoying the game. As it is, everyone's concept of what 'real' is, is different anyway.

JB

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Trinity
. . .I'm having to go to war to get saltpeter. . .

Not that the gods at Firaxis are reading this forum.....

This is going to be messy and really hurt my world image.

No, the gods at Firaxis proved they don't read these forums or care what we say as they ignored most of the excellent suggestions for Civ 3 during five years of discussion after Civ 2 came out. Instead they concocted this Culture Flipping and Settler Diarrhea stuff.

If you use the dumb resource values Firaxis gave us you will indeed have to go to war time and again for resources. Edit them up to make them rare, but not insanely non-historically rare. I have iron at 177, coal at 171, and saltpeter 150.

As a substitute for saltpeter in the Civil War Confederates conserved urine. True.

Something else Firaxis doesn't know, the Germans used SYNTHETIC rubber in World War II. Nothing about that in the game either.

 

[Trinity]

If I recall the case with rubber, synthetics came in around the late 20s early 30s anyway because natural rubber was too bouncy for car tires.

Anyway I got my saltpeter without having to go to war for it by building a fleet of galleys 5 settlers, 4 workers, and sending them over to this other relatively unihabited continent. It's within city limits. I also ferried over about 10 military units to deal with the barbarians hordes there. It was like the Normandy invasion there, "Beach head!" Here I am just trying to set up the colonies, and all the barbarians in the world come right down on me. I now know why the AI didn't try and take it. But I got spices and wine to boot! Now all I have to do is build a harbor.

The Iroquois were in the process of preparing it for colonization, and I got to watch their mounted warriors getting chewed up. But to quote my military advisor regarding the Iroquois, "compared to these guys, our military is weak!" And I'm 14 units above my free units. We're all updated and I assume he just mentions quantitative superiority.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

The 'GODS' @ Firaxis do read this Forum, at least Mike B and some others. And they are helpfull, so Zouave, if you ever want the elite unit leader creation problem gone, be nice to them. Mike is looking into finding a way to mark 'used' units for us!!!!!!

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
The 'GODS' @ Firaxis do read this Forum, at least Mike B and some others. And they are helpfull, so Zouave, if you ever want the elite unit leader creation problem gone, be nice to them. Mike is looking into finding a way to mark 'used' units for us!!!!!!

Zouave don't think they read the forum, since they don't make the game exactly as he wants it, totally forgetting that most civ players have qyute different opinions than he has.

I do like the fact that resources are scarce. In my current large map game I have no oil within easy reach - one source on my continent deep inside enemy territory, and two sources on the other coninent, neither near the shores. This is a great challenge which makes the game much more interesting.

And I also disagree with Zouave's other points, but unlike him I try to stay on topic

 

[Trinity]

This makes me wonder. Is there a way of making saltpeter obsolete after the discovery of Chemistry? Or making rubber obsolete after the discovery of Mass Production? Since the stuff we make these parts out of don't rely on having that source anymore.

Also a side note, the Germans were also making synthetic fuels in WWII. During my work at an oil company's research facility, we were looking at that stuff during the early 1980s, but stopped when crude oil prices dropped.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Zouave


As a substitute for saltpeter in the Civil War Confederates conserved urine. True.

Zoave, I want to see your new tech tree when the editor comes out. What will be the prereqs for discovering urine, and what will urine lead to? Maybe biological weapons?

(I think that rubber looks like dog sh** so maybe there is a connection.)

 

[Masquerouge]

I totaly agree with the scarcity of resources (even if I do get MAAAAAD when i'm in shortage, or one of my resources just vanish )
Because it indeed adds an entire strategical aspect to the game : now starting a war can really have a justification other than "Wipe this guy out".

I've read somewhere that in PTW, you will be able to allow every player to have equal access to resources. Then I don't know what will be the point of resources if everyone has them ??? I for one will NOT chek that option.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Masquerouge
I've read somewhere that in PTW, you will be able to allow every player to have equal access to resources. Then I don't know what will be the point of resources if everyone has them ??? I for one will NOT chek that option.

I guess its for MP, where it's much more important to have balanced starting positions. This only means that they all have oil etc. close to their starting position. Those resources have to be defended, as a viable strategy will be to conquer the opponents resources.

 

[Masquerouge]

Well, ok, maybe. But I'm not convinced...
On the other hand, I would HATE to be the only one loser without rubber on MP

So... maybe I am convinced.
:enlighten:

 

[Timo]

Originally posted by Trinity
This makes me wonder. Is there a way of making saltpeter obsolete after the discovery of Chemistry?

Didn't you read the answers here? Or the Civilopedia/Manual?

You don't need any Saltpeter later in the game! After dicovering Nationalism you can build Rifleman without any resource.

 

[FredLC]

Originally posted by Masquerouge
I've read somewhere that in PTW, you will be able to allow every player to have equal access to resources. Then I don't know what will be the point of resources if everyone has them ??? I for one will NOT chek that option.

I know you said you are already convinced by the need of balance in a MP game; but i think that there is even more to that.

I think that the option only guarantee that you will START with all resources nearby. But not only you can loose them through war, but they can also vanish from your borders randomly.

So, even with the option checked, it's possible to imagine CIVs that lack a certain one, specially if they had to fight early wars that have slowed their expansion, making them have little territory, or simply if he was unluck and the resource was near his border and therefore vulnerable to an enemy attack.

So, a civ that has many of each can make lots of money by selling them to others that lack it for any of the given reasons, specially because commerce will achieve a whole new perspective in multiplayer.

Anyway, i think that the option should work only for strategic resources, so wars for luxuries can fill the gap left by the smaller number of resource wars.

Just my $ 0,02.

Regards .