Techs as Sets: New Model for Technology

Mxzs

Prince
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Aug 16, 2003
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This is an idea that I had while thinking about ChrTh's proposed new tech model. (Original post here.) But I've been thinking some more about it, and it seems to have wider possible applications, so I'm going to put it into its own thread. It's not a proposal, exactly; I'm only going to describe an alternate way of constructing and relating techs. It's not a new tech tree—a new arrangement of techs—but a new way of structuring and relating techs. I think it could open up easy and intuitive ways to add features that users have sometimes lobbied for.

Currently, Civ models techs as nodes-with-a-license. That is, a tech is a node in a network of other techs, such that possession of one node opens a path that lets you reach another node. Furthermore, possession of one node gives you a license to build units, buildings, etc., and/or improve terrain in certain ways. So, for example, reaching the Fishing node opens up a path that will let you reach the Pottery node while also giving you a license to build work boats.

This is a simple and intuitive structure, which is one reason it has survived unchanged from Civ 1 into Civ 4.

In the new model, though, advanced techs would be structured as composites of earlier techs; mathematically, they would be sets. So, instead of an "Ironclad" tech (say) being a node connected to the earlier techs "Steam Power" and "Metallurgy," it would be composed of them; it would be the set (Steam Power, Metallurgy). This means you wouldn't have to research three techs in order to secure the Ironclad tech; you would only have to research two. The instant you had both Steam Power and Metallurgy you would also gain Ironclad.

Now, by itself, this doesn't sound like a huge change, though you would have to make various other changes in order to implement it. (For instance, this change would make tech advances occur more quickly, and you'd need a way of slowing things down again, perhaps by constructing each tech out of many more than two components.) But there would be one further immediate consequences, as I noted in ChrTh's thread, and room for several additional evolutions.

First, techs would not be related simply by the prerequisite-successor relation, but also through the techs they share as components. This relation (a matter of degree) would naturally tend to bring certain techs into "clusters" that would tend to naturally group them together. These clusters would also behave in a way that would mimic the giving of bonuses for pursuing certain research paths. For example, let Ironclad comprise the techs Steam Power, Propeller, Iron Rolling, Advanced Shipbuilding, and Cannon-making; let Railroads = (Steam Power, Iron Rolling, Corporation); and let Flight = (Propeller, Aerodynamics, Balloons). (Reflecting the fact that there would have to be significant changes to the identities of the techs, I've contrived some examples rather than using ready-mades in Civ 4.) Ironclad and Railroads would share two components (Steam Poser, Iron Rolling); Ironclads and Flight would share one (Propeller); Flight and Railroads would share none. This would model the idea that Railroads and Ironclads are more closely related to each than either is to Flight; it would also mean that Railroads and Ironclads would be more likely to be discovered in close succession, as a great deal of the research that leads to one would be an accumulation for the other. (In fact, if the player researched the techs in the order <Cannon-making, Advanced Shipbuilding, Iron Rolling, Propeller, Corporation, Steam Power>, he would get the Ironclad and Railroad techs on the same turn.) This structural feature could be arranged so that advanced techs "cluster" in ways similar to those in the real world, which would help heighten historical verisimilitude.

At the same time, though, with a little tweaking the model would be flexible enough to easily accommodate a rich variety of "alternate" tech lines. You could, for instance, model the "vanilla" techs as simple sets, so that they are always discovered when their component techs are discovered. But you could construct certain "alternate" techs as ordered sets, meaning that these could be unlocked only if their components were discovered in a particular sequence. So, imagine a universe that contains the following techs: Steam Power, Propeller, Iron Rolling, Advanced Shipbuilding, Cannon-making, Modern Explosives, Pistons, Aerodynamics, and Balloons. Researching these in any order would give the player Ironclads, Railroads, and Flight. But the particular research order <Pistons, Propeller, Advanced Shipbuilding, Modern Explosives> could unlock a new and obscure tech: "Infernal Devices." (Infernal Devices would be that ordered set.) This tech, which the player (or the AI) need not pursue in every game, would in turn be a component in the simple sets Steam-Powered Tanks (= (Infernal Devices, Steam Power)); Armored Dirigibles (= (Infernal Devices, Balloons)); and Martian Tripods (= (Infernal Devices, Pistons)). Welcome to the world of steam punk.

Note that this structure would not run into a problem that dh_edit has noted: having to radically increase the number of techs in the game in order to accommodate branching research paths. That's because the number of sets that you can create from a domain of elements is always larger than the number of elements (except when the domain consists of only one element, of course). From just 10 initial elements you can construct 512 sets; you can construct many more than that if you are building ordered sets; and since the more advanced composite techs would be sets of techs that are themselves composites (sets of sets), the number would be ... well, quite large. Thus, a fairly limited stock of "basic" techs could support a practically unlimited number of units. The three "steam punk" techs above needed only a single "tech" (the one that creates the unit itself) and one "gateway" tech (Infernal Devices). In short: once you think up the unit, you would only need to think up a plausible set of already existing tech that would let you build it. There would be no need for extra "branches" on a tech tree.

In addition to modeling "alternate tech lines" (which would be juicy material for mods to work with, and a perfect place for designers to hide easter eggs), "ordered set techs" would also be a natural way to model Unique Units. Moreover, they would be unique units not hardwired to specific civilizations; whatever civ found or stumbled upon the ordered set would get them. For this reason&#8212;their appearance would be a function of gameplay and not something hardwired into the game&#8212;it would mean each game could be different. Sometimes Martian Tripods appear (oh noes!), but sometimes they don't.

Now, once you have the idea of techs being sets, you can extend or modify it in various ways. For instance, a tech might not only be a set of techs; it might include non-tech elements. So, for instance, the Ironclad might be the set (Steam Power, Propeller, Iron Rolling, Cannon-making, [Tool Works]), where [Tool Works] is a building. In other words, you would have the tech only so long as you had at least one Tool Works in one of your cities. If you lost all your Tool Works, you would be unable to build Ironclads, something that could easily happen in wartime even if all your ports were still in your possession. (Think of how desperate the South was during the Civil War; all those ports, from Newport News to Galveston, and they could only build a handful of ironclads.) Carried to an extreme, this kind of thing would be a natural way to mimic a dark age. If your material base degrades (as it did in the western Roman empire following the barbarian influxes), the technical knowledge can't be exercised, and widespread devastation can cascade into catastrophic losses. So, imagine that the possession of at least one Farm is necessary for some fairly basic (but still composite) tech; and imagine that during a devastating invasion you lose all your Farms. The loss would cascade upward, crippling not only the tech that Farms are a constituent of, but the techs that tech is part of, and so on up the line. You might be able to quickly repair the damage (building one farm might lead to a reverse cascade recovering all your lost tech), but if combined with worse damage elsewhere, it might knock you back by an age or two for a very long time.

Now take the idea of techs having non-techs as elements and turn it on its head: Units or buildings might also be structured as sets that take disparate items as members. A simple example with interesting implications: Janissaries might be modeled as the simple set (Musketmen [unit], Slavery [civic]). That is, the unique unit Janissaries might be generated not with a special tech but simply by turning on the Slavery civic while you have Musketmen in play. The Musketmen would automatically change, at no cost, to the new unit. That's because the difference between a slave-soldier and a conscript/volunteer is one of social organization, not technology or equipment. The difference in combat value might be minimal, but it would give the player another choice, and it would be a way of adding cosmetic variety to the game without having to restructure the tech tree in order to find a "place" for the new unit. In fact, there would be no "tech" at all for it.

Such cosmetic changes could also answer one of the more anal-retentive complaints about Civ: E.g., I build a Temple in 1500 BC and it's still there in AD 2025; what gives? There seems no satisfactory solution. At a certain point does it lose its positive effects? (That would be churlish.) Does the game give you a new version of the building with a later tech? (That clutters things up, and who has time to build everything?) But suppose buildings were also construed as sets. Just as "Janissaries" are easily added as a cosmetic change to (and maybe incremental improvement on) Musketmen, Temples could be "updated" in various ways without adding anything to the basic stock of elements. Let "Synagogue" be the set (Temple [building], Library [building], Judaism [religion]); let "Church" be the set (Temple [building], Theology [tech], Christianity [religion]); let "Starbucks" be the set (Temple [building], Free Religion [civic]). (Okay, I'm being facetious with that last suggestion.) Presto-chango, a freshened and modern city without making the tech tree any longer and without having to build anything new.

Changes parallel to those made to Musketmen and Janissaries are left as exercises to the reader.

The examples in the last two paragraph, I said, are mostly cosmetic, but more meaningful changes could be made with no added complexity. Consider factories; these are physically indistinguishable, for the most part, whether built in free market countries or centrally planned countries. In practice, they tend work much differently, though: while both will spit out industrial products, factories in free market countries tend to be a wealth-producing node while those in centrally planned economies can do little better than transform raw materials into finished goods. Civ has a hard time modeling this currently. At best, it seems it can use the Free Market civic only to increase the overall wealth of countries. But in this new model the game would have two different "factories": Factory I (Assembly Line [tech], Free Market [civic]) and Factory II (Industrialization [tech], State Property [civic]). Factory I would produce coins; Factory II would consume them. The production queue would only contain "Factory" as a building; the switch from I to II would occur by switching civics.

Or, consider any kind of unit above Warrior: it's a man with a weapon. But usually weapons have to be provided by some kind of armory, and this is a especially important when it's a unit that shoots ammunition. So, let Rifleman be the set (Warrior [unit], Rifling [tech], Armory [building]). Now imagine you lose your last Armory building during a war. Without that component, your Riflemen would instantly degrade into Warriors: men with clubs (their ammo-less rifles). The thought is easily extended to cover another recurrent player request, that Tanks (and other modern units) not be allowed to function when the civ loses its access to oil. It would seem quite easy to model. Tank* would be the set (Tank [unit], Oil [resource]), where Tank is a unit with 0 movement points and Tank* is the same unit with 2 movement points. (The production queue would simply show "Tank"; the relation between Tanks and Tank*s would be like that between Factory I and Factory II.)

As I said, many things would have to be changed in the game in order to accommodate this new model. There may be crippling theoretical problems that just haven't seen. But I've written enough for now.

EDIT: A caveat that I wrote the day after posting this. It appears in a post below, but I'm adding it here, too:

The tech tree, not only in concept but in the way that it works, is one of the central organizing principles of the Civ games. Non-cosmetic changes to the tree will have effects that ripple outward, sometimes with accumulating impact. Obviously, I haven't thought through all of the implications. My posts in this thread, then, will be those of a guy thinking out loud. In the first batch of posts I make I will be trying to anticipate where and what kind of issues this proposal raises. Because so many issues will be implicated in a change like I've outlined, I'm going to try resisting the temptation to give concrete and specific responses to any observations, suggestions, or criticisms raised by readers. I will welcome and value anything you guys will offer, of course, because you'll see things that I will miss. But if I give what seems like a cursory response, it will only be because quick responses to comments will necessarily be less valuable than the comments themselves.

That said, if anyone can sink this suggestion with a single well-placed torpedo, fire it. It would save me from wasting a lot of time and effort. At least, that's what I would tell myself as I cry myself to sleep.
 
:goodjob: Wow, I really like it! Infernal Devices FTW! :D

First concern: how hard will it be to render the sets for display purposes? It seems like with nigh-infinite extensions possible (Calendar [tech] + Mysticism [tech] + Temple [building] + Priest [specialist] = Dionysian Festival (+3 :) in city until discovery of Astronomy)), you might need a lot of printouts with the game

Second concern: Since everything in a set is required, the system seems just as rigid as the current tech tree; it's flexibility seems designed North-South rather than East-West (i.e. you can do a lot more different things in the Industrial Age (Infernal Machines!) but you still can't get there without gaining everything you need in the Renaissance Age). Now, you might not care about that, but I know one of the frequent criticisms of the current Tech Tree is its inflexibility.
 
:goodjob: Wow, I really like it! Infernal Devices FTW! :D

Wasn't that a tech in that Jules Verne scenario in Civ 2? I've never forgiven Firaxis for not carrying that scenario over into 3 and 4 ...

First concern: how hard will it be to render the sets for display purposes?

What kind of display are you talking about? As boring as it sounds, the most informative way to display these might be as a list (though with pretty colors!)

It seems like with nigh-infinite extensions possible (Calendar [tech] + Mysticism [tech] + Temple [building] + Priest [specialist] = Dionysian Festival (+3 :) in city until discovery of Astronomy)

You forgot the "Wine [resource]"! :D

Second concern: Since everything in a set is required, the system seems just as rigid as the current tech tree; it's flexibility seems designed North-South rather than East-West (i.e. you can do a lot more different things in the Industrial Age (Infernal Machines!) but you still can't get there without gaining everything you need in the Renaissance Age). Now, you might not care about that, but I know one of the frequent criticisms of the current Tech Tree is its inflexibility.

That's a big question. At the moment I have intuitions. What I don't have is a way to simulate the relations to see how they can (and can't) be structured.

Quickly on the intuitions: there would be first-order techs (no prereqs), second-order (first-order techs as prereqs), third-order (at least one second-order as prereq) and so on. (That's not a design theory, that's how the mathematics would inevitably work out.) If there are enough first-order techs (and probably between one-third and one-half of all the techs in the game would wind up being first-order) you might be able to construct a series of mostly discrete and only a little bit overlapping "pyramids" of techs extending up to the second, third, fourth, etc. levels. At some of the higher levels they would begin to merge or interconnect more closely. Also, some techs would require combinations of various lower order techs. (For instance, a fourth-order tech might require three third-order, one second-order, and one first-level tech.) Now, within all this diversity (and with so much mathematical space to play in) I hope one could construct "paths" (they would look more like pyramids) that take you to advanced levels without having to research every possible basic tech or every possible composite tech.
 
Hey guys, I'm just poking in and don't have a long time... the real challenge -- which you fortunately think is relatively easy to overcome -- is to think of 88 technologies that would let you compose the approximately 35 buildings and approximately 45 combat units in the full game.

Unfortunately, with techs as discrete as "Ballooning" and "Propeller", I'm just not seeing it. That's not so much pessimism as me not being on the same page as you guys yet. And, unfortunately, putting together a prototype tech tree is a lot of work, and is really only for the most hardcore (or people getting paid to do it). The next best thing, though, would be to do 1/6 eras, or 1/6 branches (approximately 15 techs). Can you get us from 1750 AD to 1950 AD in 15 techs -- the industrial era? Can you describe all the defensive military and offensive military techs in 15 each?

That's the challenge, as far as I can tell.

(Oh, and finding ways to keep the pre-requisites for each units easy to manage. But that's a secondary issue.)
 
In the new model, though, advanced techs would be structured as composites of earlier techs; mathematically, they would be sets. So, instead of an "Ironclad" tech (say) being a node connected to the earlier techs "Steam Power" and "Metallurgy," it would be composed of them; it would be the set (Steam Power, Metallurgy). This means you wouldn't have to research three techs in order to secure the Ironclad tech; you would only have to research two. The instant you had both Steam Power and Metallurgy you would also gain Ironclad.
Wouldn't this result in a daisy-chain effect, where once I got a certain number of basic techs, I would instantaneously be awarded a whole slew of advanced techs?

Seems to me that each tech needs to include some "overhead" which is research representing the effort and development required to assimilate and integrate the separate components.

Wodan
 
Unfortunately, with techs as discrete as "Ballooning" and "Propeller", I'm just not seeing it.

Those are only there as placeholders, not proposals. If you insert "Tech A, Tech B, Tech C ..." for "Steam Power, Balloons, Propellers ..." in my first post you won't change my meaning. All this is still at the schematic state. Coming up with an actual structure is still so far off that it might as well be on the Moon. There are too many huge problems (like the one Wodan mentions) that would have to be dealt with first. My next few posts will give an idea of the scope involved.

(That being said, I'll recklessly speculate that a tech like "Propeller" might be useful if it appeared randomly, not as a tech that could be researched. Its use would consist in being an element in an ordered-set-tech that would unlock an alternate tech set.)

Wouldn't this result in a daisy-chain effect, where once I got a certain number of basic techs, I would instantaneously be awarded a whole slew of advanced techs?

Absolutely. See the post below (which I wrote yesterday). I'm taking this very slowly and carefully. I see more problems than I have even begun to hint at. ;)
 
I forgot to preface my first post with a big caveat, so here it is:

The tech tree, not only in concept but in the way that it works, is one of the central organizing principles of the Civ games. Non-cosmetic changes to the tree will have effects that ripple outward, sometimes with accumulating impact. Obviously, I haven't thought through all of the implications. My posts in this thread, then, will be those of a guy thinking out loud. In the first batch of posts I make I will be trying to anticipate where and what kind of issues this proposal raises. Because so many issues will be implicated in a change like I've outlined, I'm going to try resisting the temptation to give concrete and specific responses to any observations, suggestions, or criticisms raised by readers. I will welcome and value anything you guys will offer, of course, because you'll see things that I will miss. But if I give what seems like a cursory response, it will only be because quick responses to comments will necessarily be less valuable than the comments themselves.

That said, if anyone can sink this suggestion with a single well-placed torpedo, fire it. It would save me from wasting a lot of time and effort. At least, that's what I would tell myself as I cry myself to sleep.

* * * * *

Here, for instance, is one obvious problem with what I've suggested: To discover all the advanced techs it would suffice to discover all of the basic techs. That's because the method of "instant discovery," when added to the mathematics that generates that ungodly number of composite techs in the first place, would generate all the composite techs that comprise the basic techs as each basic tech is mastered. Worse, the pace of advance would increase very quickly as each basic tech was added.

Here's a simple illustration. Suppose the domain included four basic techs (A, B, C, and D), each of which you discovered after ten turns. At the end each tenth turn, even with eleven composite techs, here is what you would have mastered:

10: A
20: B, (AB)
30: C, (AC), (BC), (ABC)
40: D, (AD), (BD), (ABD), (CD), (ACD), (BCD), (ABCD)

Of course, the actual pace of discovery would depend upon which of these sets are actually realized as composite techs, and the order in which you discovered the basic techs. If the only composite techs are (AB), (BC), (ABD) and (ABCD), and you discovered them in the order A, D, B, C, then your pace of advance would look like this:

10: A
20: D
30: B, (AB), (ABD)
40: C, (BC), (ABCD)

Your pace would not double from turn to turn, but it would still increase over time. In general, either the pace would quicken at a very fast rate, or it would increase slowly before making a huge spike at the end.

Now, in a sense this is realistic; human history does seem to feature a quickening pace of advance, and a theory that describes technological advance as a matter of putting separate "techs" into composites would seem a good way of explaining that fact. Still, you don't want a runaway cascade effect; it would be silly if mastering the last basic tech gave you twenty techs on a late turn.

I see a couple of ways you could slow it down.

One way would be to install some kind of delay between the moment you mastered a tech and when you were able to apply it. So, you get Ironclads on turn 256, but you can't actually do anything with it until you invest more research into that specific tech. I don't much like this idea, though, because it sneaks the old "network" picture back in. The "real" tech is only reached as a separate step late in the process. I prefer a clean model.

Alternately, you might make the stock of basic techs very large relative to the composites, so that it would take nearly the entire game to discover all the basic techs, and thus take nearly the entire game to discover all the composite ones. Yesterday, as I was quickly replying to ChrTh, I casually mentioned that one-third to one-half of the techs could be basic. But the actual proportion would depend upon how many techs (both basic and composite) you had in the game. In order to fill out the usual Civ running time of (whatever number it is) turns, you would probably need between 70 and 90 basic techs (the fewer the techs, the more research time each would need). That would imply somewhere between 70 and 180 composite techs in order to get my "one-third to one-half" claim. As soon as I logged off I realized that would probably be absurd; although the composites are built on basics, and so in a sense don't really add anything to the game, it's still rather silly to create that many. More realistic would be something like 60 basic techs (with slightly longer research times) and 30 composite techs. This would cut down on the cascade effect by reducing the number of techs that are prone to being realized in a cascade.

Another idea I briefly mentioned last night was constructing mostly independent "pyramids" of techs. This is actually the "cluster" idea made a little cleaner and more rigid. Instead of a wide base of widely connected basic techs, there could be small groups of basic techs: the techs in each group would form second-order techs, but they would not connect to basic techs outside their groups. For instance, a stock of 60 basic techs could be separated into groups of ten, each supporting (say) five or six composites. Concentrating on one cluster would lead to a quick "pop" giving you all of their composite techs, but the process would slow down again once you moved on to the next cluster (though it would speed up again as you completed the second stock of basics); and if you researched one or two basic techs in each cluster over the course of the game, your initial progress would be much slower before suddenly rocketing forward at the end.

A third idea: "Ages" might be useful in keeping a reign on the speed and thoroughness of your discoveries: not all the basic techs might be available from the start of the game. Instead, many of the basic techs might be held back until a certain number (or defined group) of composite techs had been researched, at which point the additional basic techs might show up in the research queue. There is, for instance, little reason that "Steam Power" (as a concept, not as the Ironclad-building tech that it is Civ 4) shouldn't be available at the start of the game, but it might be held back so that it doesn't appear until relatively late. The necessary composite techs would not, formally, be prerequisites for the delayed basic techs, but they would act as though they were. Like the idea of a built-in delay, though, this is a rather kludgey fix. A more organic way of realizing the same affect might be to key the appearance of some basic techs to particular land forms or improvements within the player's borders. A basic tech like (say) Ship Building might not appear until the player had built a coastal city or had rivers within his borders. Gunpowder might not appear as an option before he had built both a pasture and a farm. In any case, such a large number of interrelated techs would constitute a late-appearing cluster or clusters.

Finally, there is the thought that techs could have non-tech elements in their sets. This would be another realistic touch. It's not enough to have the concepts of Steam Power, Iron Rolling, etc., in order to build Ironclads; there needs to be a guy standing there looking at the boat, the iron plates, the cannon, and the steam engine who says "What if we ..." This is what adding Tool Works (a building) as an element in the Ironclads tech would do. It would also tend to slow things down, as it would be a way of adding "prerequisites" that require direct effort by the player to the original stock of tech components. Of course, which advances were slowed and the degree to they were slowed would vary from game to game.

It seems to me some combination of all these last four possibilities would have to be used, but the last mentioned is probably the key. The others would probably still be too vulnerable to the "cascading" effect.
 
In the previous post I talked about one problem a "Techs as Sets" proposal would have to surmount, a problem that's an intrinsic feature of any model that takes Techs to be sets of earlier techs. In this post I'll reflect on a key gameplay element that any reconstruction of the tech tree (even the cosmetic ones) has to address: pace of development.

The Civ tech tree as it is currently modeled is a design marvel: it's a congeries of small-scale kludges that balance against each other to create an ingenious effect. The game comes with an array of units, improvements, buildings, etc., of greater or lesser power. It spaces out these elements so that the player can only gradually and in sequence acquire the more powerful ones: it would be unbalancing if they all came at once. The tech tree is the path along which the player must progress to get these items. But because the items must be spaced out (to promote gameplay), the tech tree is actually as much a delaying mechanism as it is a facilitating one. The techs are arranged and connected so some interval must pass before the player gets a more powerful unit or building. The actual identity and arrangement of intervening techs is barely relevant, and its resemblance to the progress of real history is therefore only notional. Is there any other reason that "Chemistry" is a prerequisite of "Steam Power" in Civ 4 than that the units licensed by the latter have to make a delayed appearance?

This, then, is another test that a redesigned tech model has to pass: the units licensed by the techs cannot appear too quickly, and it cannot allow certain branches of tech developments (such as military power) to advance out of step with the other branches.

A system like I'm trying to develop builds advanced techs directly out of basic techs. This means it cannot directly control which advanced techs will appear and when they will appear; moreover, it cannot directly control the appearance of basic techs without (implicitly) returning to the structure of the original game. I said in the above post that there might be some direct control exercised over the appearance of basic techs, but that cannot be the whole strategy; otherwise, one might as well return to the original model. Instead, the new system would have to approach the challenge from a tangent.

I start by reflecting that the average human being probably only values knowledge for its instrumental value; electricity is "interesting" only to the extent that it can be made to power TVs, PCs, refrigerators, and iPods. This is also probably true of humanity as a whole: its increase in abstract knowledge is probably more or less in direct proportion to its increase in physical mastery over the world, because the former is generally only pursued in order to give it the latter. (Cultures that for whatever reason are less interested in extending their material power also seem to be less interested in abstract physical knowledge; to the extent that they extend their knowledge base, they seem to pursue the kind of metaphysical or religious speculations that do not have physical consequences. Knowing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin may have important consequences for theology (in fact, it does!) but it's not the kind of the thing that will increase crop yields.) Civ players, of course, are more interested in the kind of physical knowledge that can be used in the game to increase their yields of food, hammers, and coins. (This is one reason the game is still so fumble-thumbed when it comes to culture: culture is not intrinsically a force multiplier.) I would start, then, with the recognition that tech advances have mostly instrumental value and so should function as adjuncts to other elements.

The important relation in Civ, then, is not between techs and units (or buildings, improvements, etc.), but between and among these latter elements themselves. Land forms yield resources (food, hammers, trade, strategic resources) which are then leveraged by improvements (farms, mines, factories, etc.) to yield the desired output of population, food, hammers, happiness, coins, etc. The relation is not simply one way, however, for the output is then invested to modify the land forms so as to increase their yields, which in turn can further modify the improvements. So, for example, mines work iron deposits, which can then be used to construct railroads, which can then open up coal reserves, which can then be used to power factories.

It's not only the physical environment that is at work here, but the social environment; if a factory is a physical building that multiplies and/or transforms inputs, then a civic and even a military force is a social organization that does the same thing: civics by modifying the operation of some land forms or machinery, and the military by protecting or extending the borders within which land forms can be exploited.

Note an implication of the above example: if the player already has the ability to build such things as mines, railroads, etc., then his ability to leverage up to an improved state will be a function of the resources and time that he has to put the pieces together: to build a railroad-factory combine you need capital to invest and the time to acquire the resources. This can be an expensive and time-consuming process as easily as it can be a short and cheap one. So, first you get the money to build the mine; then you have to slowly transport the iron to a workshop that can build rails and locomotives; then you have to build the railroad; then you have to construct the coal mine; then you have to move the coal out; then you have to build the factory. The point is not that the process of building these improvements should be slowed down by using investment bottlenecks (though that method worked nicely in Colonization, and it works alarmingly well in Anno 1701). It's that the process of material growth and mastery is just that&#8212;a process&#8212;and that techs have their natural place as a way to regulate this process. It's not just the lack of capital that might prevent the construction of a railroad; the player might not know how to.

This is where techs can reappear and resume their classic role as delayers; they can be another element in the construction process rather than a license to construct certain things.

Go back to an offhand observation I made in the first post:

let "Church" [a building] be the set (Temple [building], Theology [tech], Christianity [religion])

I made this suggestion in the course of suggesting that buildings, units, and other whatnot could also be modeled as sets that can take various elements as members. This is one way of establishing direct and intuitive relations between the various game elements without having to mediate them through a tech tree. The ability to build an ironclad unit, for instance, would not simply follow from the discovery of the "Steam Power" tech. Rather, it would follow from having lots of other pieces in place: the workshops where they could be built, the transportation grid to bring the pieces together, the basic resources (like iron) to consume in constructing them. The player would not simply have to invest research dollars and hammers in order to build them; he would have to build a much larger and extended machine that is itself capable of supporting them. These would be the important relations, and it is these relations that would more directly control the timing and appearance of more and more advanced units. Techs would just be another tool.

(Note that making tech advance work in this way would be another way of adding verisimilitude to the game. Right now the game absurdly imagines that anyone with the technical know-how and some ocean-front property can build battleships or factories. But move a bunch of engineers and blueprints to Namibia and I doubt you'll get either; the country simply can't support them. Right now the game confuses ability with capacity. Philosopher David Lewis identified the distinction with a joke: "Yes, I can speak Finnish, but only in the sense that I have a functioning larynx. So don't take me to Helsinki as a translator; I don't know the language." The tech advances give you the language, so to speak, but they shouldn't give you the physical equipment.)

(Note also that this would occasion a slight redefinition of the notion of "technological advance." Advancing would not be a matter of mastering arcane "technical knowledge" but of building improvements that themselves tend to unlock further improvements. Again, there is a realistic tinge to this. Is a culture that can build Modern Armor and Stealth Bombers but doesn't as advanced as one that can and does build them? I suppose some might say "Yes" and further argue that they are morally superior, too. I won't get into that debate, but I will suggest that a civilization that doesn't give physical expression to its advances is like a billionaire miser who lives in a rain barrel: he may be rich in theory, but he sure ain't rich in practice.)

For now, I draw two conclusions, one about the texture of the game, and one for game design:

First, many techs would be "conceptual" techs only. Some handful of early techs would directly license the building of certain improvements (like farms or mines), but most of them would simply function as additional elements that would go into the prerequisites for advanced units and improvements. The early acquisition of "Steam Power," for instance, would be pointless, as it was in Roman times. As a corollary, many techs that might seem most natural in later stages of the game (like Steam Power) could actually be made available quite early. Whether there would be any point in making them available so early is a different question. Moreover, most of the basic techs, being of a conceptual nature, would be boring and abstract, more like "Chemistry" than like (to bring back and mock one of my own examples) "Propeller."

Second, the important thing to manage in tech advancement is not the names or historical natures of the units or improvements, but their values. For instance, there would be nothing wrong with letting the player develop Steam-Powered Trebuchets in the "classical" era, so long as such things were only marginally more powerful than regular catapults. The "technology" could be as advanced as you like, so long as the values of the units it creates aren't unbalanced. That's not to say that a designer should go out of his way to create units for unexpected combinations of techs, only that he shouldn't be brought up short if sees such techs "popping" more early than he would expect.

And this goes to the final point I will make here. When constructing the relations the designer would have to keep himself from tripping over names. If he winds up constructing a cluster that seems to lead to the early adoption of something like factories and submarines, he would just have to make sure that those things are much weaker than their names would suggest; in addition, he should give them names (like "Submersible Trireme") that do not automatically suggest their modern counterparts.

Obviously I've said nothing yet about how particular techs and buildings could be related; I've hardly said anything about the technical challenges implicit in relating them. I've only suggested which variables the designer would have to keep in mind when he sits down to draw up such relations.

The above has probably been a tedious read, and so it is probably too late to give the moral, but here it is: The purpose of a tech tree in Civ is to regulate the appearance of more-advanced units and improvements. This function, however, can be mostly taken over by other elements, by earlier units and improvements and by resources and land forms; and techs can be best used as a separate regulator to help control and channel the advances.

* * * * *

Side reply to dh_edit:

the real challenge -- which you fortunately think is relatively easy to overcome -- is to think of 88 technologies that would let you compose the approximately 35 buildings and approximately 45 combat units in the full game.

Unfortunately, with techs as discrete as "Ballooning" and "Propeller", I'm just not seeing it. That's not so much pessimism as me not being on the same page as you guys yet. And, unfortunately, putting together a prototype tech tree is a lot of work, and is really only for the most hardcore (or people getting paid to do it). The next best thing, though, would be to do 1/6 eras, or 1/6 branches (approximately 15 techs). Can you get us from 1750 AD to 1950 AD in 15 techs -- the industrial era? Can you describe all the defensive military and offensive military techs in 15 each?

Now do you see why I said that this kind of issue is so far off that it might as well be on the Moon? :D

That said, trying to lay out ten or fifteen techs/units/buildings/etc. would probably be a useful exercise in discovering still more theoretical problems. :sweat:

One more edit: I appreciate the caution about creating techs. Now, I don't want to sound boastful or complacent, but one reason I am kinda cavalier about tech and unit creation is that I've conceptualized a lot of alternate tech/units/etc. in my time. True, I've not done any since Civ 2 (I'm on a Mac; we got screwed on Civ 3, and I'm still new to Civ 4), but I had a blast making scenarios way back then ...
 
This weekend is gonna be busy for me, so once again I can only check in quickly. I could only really give a good skim, but a few thoughts came to mind.

Electricity was discovered in the 1700s. Arguably, even sooner. But when you REALLY look at history, it didn't DO anything. In that sense, electricity was really adopted after 1850, well into the industrial revolution -- allowing such advances as power lines and the radio. Further, radio was just something two people did to send communication in the late 1800s. "The Radio" as we know it is more of an early 20th century invention, with broadcasting and so on.

Why did I raise that? It's not just to show that there's a gap between theory and application, but to show that the civ tech tree really isn't a way to represent the history of ideas. It's a way to space out stuff you can do in the game. It has inaccuracies built in to do so.

Religions were only really founded *after* writing. But Firaxis put religions in immediately, since it would have the most meaningful impact on the game that way. Hunting is 100,000 years old! And yet it's along side the wheel, which was invented in 4000 BC. Moreover, pottery preceded the wheel. The real issue is that the early tech tree is about *organized* society. Some human beings did some mining of various colored rocks in 20,000 BC, but it wasn't until 4000 BC and the first organized villages that you could have a division of labor for such tasks as "miner", or "hunter". Until then, people just kind of did what was necessary at whatever moment. The wheel wasn't a pre-requisite for pottery so much as it led to an explosion of pottery, making it more relevant in economics.

If thinking about that starts to irritate you, thinking "wait, so they had it wrong even with the first 6 technologies?!", it's only to show one thing: game play trumps realism, even in the tech tree. That's not to say Firaxis couldn't do better at both, especially the latter. But it's something to keep in mind as you try to break techs down. Firaxis is concerned with spacing and organizing new abilities -- most of which are related to military. Creating a taxonomy or history of ideas is secondary.

It's a way to delay and organize "power". But the organization aspect -- keeping the game manageable -- is key, too. Construction is Mathematics and Masonry, plus some new ideas of its own. The benefit of that is now anything that requires Construction will require Mathematics and Masonry implicitly. It keeps things sensible, and prevents the number of requirements from exploding.

That's why the current tech tree is composites of other technologies, with each technology unlocking an ability. The new approach is a good one. But it can't have too many "basic" techs, otherwise some units are going to really be the composite of 20 technologies. This is a surmountable problem if you can just come up with sensible techs and requirements, but that's why the challenge is coming up with a workable prototype.

There's probably more problems than that. I even may have misunderstood you. I've gotta run. But I'll check in again later.
 
Well, that's true from a certain point of view.

However, Civ isn't about what actually happened. It's about what could have happened.

From that perspective, Firaxis didn't get the first 6 techs wrong; they did just fine.

And, about religions: the first recorded foundings of religions occurred after writing. There may very well have been foundings before then... in fact, I daresay there were. We just don't have any record of it. In fact, when was Judaism founded? Hinduism? Beats me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was before they had writing. This would be an oral history, and then later on it was written down.

Each and every game is an alternate history and they happen differently from each other. Whatever implementation there is for technology and research, what it needs to do is provide a framework for how the civ goes about learning new stuff. As you say, it needs to space things out, and it needs to set some strictures to impose logical order based on realism (e.g., literature needs to require writing).

Wodan
 
I really like the idea, it's very constructive. But as mentioned, lots of problems are in the way, mostly being the complexity of the techtree where something could require 15 techs or so, and the problem with "popping" lots of late techs everytime you discover a new basic tech. I think I have a solution to these problems - though you have to implement a few things in your design:
Ages
Ages, or eras, would have to be introduced. Each would hold 5-15 basics and some complex. An example could be the ancient age with the basics of:
Gathering, Hunting, Fire, Housing, Coorperation (meaning "teamwork", another name might be "order of labor" or sumthing like that.), and Tools.
These would then grant: Agriculture (req. gath. + coorp + tools), mining (coorp + tools), Weapons (tools + hunting), Camps (fire + housing), Cities (Camps + agri). Warbands (weapons + coorp), Armies (Warbands + Cities). Nations (final tech req. Cities, mining and weapons.
When you had completed that era, you would move to the next age (maybe the bronze ages or so?)

Tech costs
All techs would cost a few beakers. You dont invent weapons as soon as you know tools and hunting. As mentioned in above posts, a man would have to sit down and look at the spears thinking "What if I did like this...?"
Of course the basics would still cost most.
Also, implementing buildings and resources and even culture - more of that later.

Implementing culture
Culture could maybe be implemented like this: Artisan toolmaker [building] would be an evolvement of the building "toolmaker" in a city with more than 3000 culture. A toolmaker could eventually later become a smithy or even a fac.
&#168;
Pleas ehit me back about these suggestions.
 
Hunting is 100,000 years old! And yet it's along side the wheel, which was invented in 4000 BC.

The Hunting tech is just inexcusable honestly... :lol: 100,000 is being generous... hunting has been around for as long as their have been predators.

So is Fishing... Aside from the fact that it is also infinitely older than 4,000 BC, I've done a lot of fishing myself that never got me off the shore of the lake or ocean I was fishing in... hardly gave me command of the water for trade or anything else for that matter. "Boats" might've been a better tech ;)

I've removed/renamed them from my own mod personally.

I agree with what you're said though. Gameplay trumps realism certainly...

What I can't understand is why go to all the trouble of creating this enormously complicated system having two of certain kinds of units and buildings and such to connect them with technologies when there are already plenty of existing features in the game to make much of these relationships possible... With a few more prerequisites for some techs, buildings and units, and some more modifiers in the XML, much of these ideas would be possible.

Two things I'm working on that might be beneficial to this end are: Tech Research Modifiers and Blueprints. The tech research modifier just decreases the research cost of a tech when another tech is discovered... it's somewhat akin to the "soft prerequisite" I saw in another thread around here. The best example I have to give is Scientific Method... there's a few techs that you don't NEED to have the Scientific Method to discover, but it sure helps!

In this way, the tech tree can be a little looser... there's already certain "key" techs that have very little power except that they unlock more useful techs, so there could also now be "helper" techs that have no real power aside from making it easier to research other techs.

You can also use it in cases where you have two techs that maybe overlap in terms of what you have to know to discover them... for example (this is just an example) if you had two techs like Astronomical Clock and the Astrolabe... you might need to learn how to make the various moving parts as well as the necessary understanding of the movements of the heavenly bodies, and so when you get around to researching the other, you've already laid some of the groundwork thus making it a shorter leap to get to it... but neither is dependent on the other to be discovered, but discovery of either will assist with the discovery of the other.

The other thing I'm working on is what I call "Blueprints"... I could just as easily have called them "mini-techs" but I think blueprints sounds sexier. And they are basically mini-techs. The reason for it is that the thought of adding these as full-fledged techs seemed really unnecessary... But these would include some of those more specific and "discrete" things. They also wouldn't be researched like techs either... for example, one possible prerequisite is doing battle with a particular kind of unit class... And that blueprint would be a prerequisite for a promotion or another kind of unit. So, for example, if you get hit by mounted shock troops, your troops might just discover that taking a nice long sharp pole and digging in right before the horseman slams into you might just solve your problem... or if you get bombarded by chemical gas, you decide it would be nice if you had some kind of a mask or something to protect your troops against it.

A lot of things come from stuff like that... If you hit somebody with something new, they'll develop a way to counter it. You might lose the battle, but defeat can be a real learning experience... this also means that some blueprints might never be discovered even if you play straight through to the end.

The blueprints are still a bit foggy in my mind yet, and I haven't done anything to start coding them in, but the tech reseach modifier is something I've already created... it's got some problems I'm still trying to work out, but it is very much in production already.
 
Dom Pedro, these ideas are awesome, I was actually thinking of both - especially the "helper" techs. I also like the idea about blueprints.
 
What I can't understand is why go to all the trouble of creating this enormously complicated system having two of certain kinds of units and buildings and such to connect them with technologies when there are already plenty of existing features in the game to make much of these relationships possible... With a few more prerequisites for some techs, buildings and units, and some more modifiers in the XML, much of these ideas would be possible.

Coding scares me. I haven't played with modifications since Civ2; Civ3 (for Mac users like me) was a Kafkaesque nightmare of bugs, crashes, an unofficial patchs; and when I open up one of the Civ4 XML docs, the sight of all those tags makes me leap like a startled fawn.

the civ tech tree really isn't a way to represent the history of ideas. It's a way to space out stuff you can do in the game. ... It's a way to delay and organize "power". ...

Exactly.

The game comes with an array of units, improvements, buildings, etc., of greater or lesser power. It spaces out these elements so that the player can only gradually and in sequence acquire the more powerful ones: it would be unbalancing if they all came at once. The tech tree is the path along which the player must progress to get these items. But because the items must be spaced out (to promote gameplay), the tech tree is actually as much a delaying mechanism as it is a facilitating one. The techs are arranged and connected so some interval must pass before the player gets a more powerful unit or building. The actual identity and arrangement of intervening techs is barely relevant, and its resemblance to the progress of real history is therefore only notional. Is there any other reason that "Chemistry" is a prerequisite of "Steam Power" in Civ 4 than that the units licensed by the latter have to make a delayed appearance?

The key is not to space out techs or units, though, but to space out "combat/production values":

the important thing to manage in tech advancement is not the names or historical natures of the units or improvements, but their values. For instance, there would be nothing wrong with letting the player develop Steam-Powered Trebuchets in the "classical" era, so long as such things were only marginally more powerful than regular catapults. The "technology" could be as advanced as you like, so long as the values of the units it creates aren't unbalanced. That's not to say that a designer should go out of his way to create units for unexpected combinations of techs, only that he shouldn't be brought up short if sees such techs "popping" more early than he would expect.

And this goes to the final point I will make here. When constructing the relations the designer would have to keep himself from tripping over names. If he winds up constructing a cluster that seems to lead to the early adoption of something like factories and submarines, he would just have to make sure that those things are much weaker than their names would suggest; in addition, he should give them names (like "Submersible Trireme") that do not automatically suggest their modern counterparts.

The new approach is a good one. But it can't have too many "basic" techs, otherwise some units are going to really be the composite of 20 technologies.

I'm afraid I don't understand the objection. One way to control the pace of advance toward powerful units; all other things being equal, the more powerful a unit is, the more techs it should be composed of (that is, the longer it would take to assemble the components needed to build it). I am missing something important in your reply. :confused:
 
EDIT: Gah! I somehow got my "quote" window and "edit" windows mixed up.

Crap.

Isn't there a "delete post" option for the guy whose post it is?

EDIT 2: Now where did the reply I made to Diamondeye go? I inserted it, I know; that's why I was opening up the edit window ...

It's 11:30pm over here in Korea, and I've been up too long. See you guys tomorrow. ...


the civ tech tree really isn't a way to represent the history of ideas. It's a way to space out stuff you can do in the game. ... It's a way to delay and organize "power". ...

Exactly.

The game comes with an array of units, improvements, buildings, etc., of greater or lesser power. It spaces out these elements so that the player can only gradually and in sequence acquire the more powerful ones: it would be unbalancing if they all came at once. The tech tree is the path along which the player must progress to get these items. But because the items must be spaced out (to promote gameplay), the tech tree is actually as much a delaying mechanism as it is a facilitating one. The techs are arranged and connected so some interval must pass before the player gets a more powerful unit or building. The actual identity and arrangement of intervening techs is barely relevant, and its resemblance to the progress of real history is therefore only notional. Is there any other reason that "Chemistry" is a prerequisite of "Steam Power" in Civ 4 than that the units licensed by the latter have to make a delayed appearance?

The key is not to space out techs or units, though, but to space out "combat/production values":

the important thing to manage in tech advancement is not the names or historical natures of the units or improvements, but their values. For instance, there would be nothing wrong with letting the player develop Steam-Powered Trebuchets in the "classical" era, so long as such things were only marginally more powerful than regular catapults. The "technology" could be as advanced as you like, so long as the values of the units it creates aren't unbalanced. That's not to say that a designer should go out of his way to create units for unexpected combinations of techs, only that he shouldn't be brought up short if sees such techs "popping" more early than he would expect.

And this goes to the final point I will make here. When constructing the relations the designer would have to keep himself from tripping over names. If he winds up constructing a cluster that seems to lead to the early adoption of something like factories and submarines, he would just have to make sure that those things are much weaker than their names would suggest; in addition, he should give them names (like "Submersible Trireme") that do not automatically suggest their modern counterparts.

The new approach is a good one. But it can't have too many "basic" techs, otherwise some units are going to really be the composite of 20 technologies.

I'm afraid I don't understand the objection. One way to control the pace of advance toward powerful units; all other things being equal, the more powerful a unit is, the more techs it should be composed of (that is, the longer it would take to assemble the components needed to build it). I am missing something important in your reply. :confused:
 
I'm glad we're mostly on the same page here...

I think we can agree that Firaxis would never do a game with many more than 90 or so technologies in the tech tree. But if you even take a look at the current tree, very few techs enable more than 4 or so things. And, moreover, very few techs have more than 3 pre-requisites. I think those numbers on pre-requisites guide their concerns just as much as the number of technologies.

Part of the benefit of a tree is that instead of saying Z=A+B+C+D+E+...+X+Y, you can say Z=X+Y, Y=W+V, X=T+U... the structure is inherently organized. It's easier to navigate a tree from root-to-leaf than it is to assemble 20 discrete elements. Easier to learn "Chocolate Brownie is the third item on the Desert Branch, near the Cakes branch" than it is to learn "Chocolate Brownie = Butter + Chocolate + Baking Powder + Flour + Sugar + Eggs".

To make a long story short, if you're going to keep the techs-in-a-set easy to learn and remember... you're either going to need some clever abstraction. A tree is actually the easiest way to abstract several smaller ideas into one larger idea: "Brownie = Chocolate + Cake + Snack" and "Cake = Butter + Flour + Sugar + Eggs".

I'm not saying this means you *have* to use a tree. But you want to be careful that if you abandon the tree concept, you need to find a way to keep it just as clean.
 
I was (obviously) too zonked last night to fully appreciate certain comments. After thinking things through, though, I am now inclined to strangle this monster-child I've fathered with my own bare hands.

Dom Pedro II makes the key point: my proposal doesn't add sufficient value. Civ already has the ability to make parallel tech trees and alternate units. I know that; I was thinking that this system might offer a richer and more flexible environment. Currently, as dh_edit says, you typically have to add lots of new techs and relate them to each other in order to introduce such new units. By making techs compositional rather than relational, I hoped a new system could allow alternate tech lines without having to add any new techs or lengthen research times.

But a compositional structure comes with the danger of "cascading" techs. Even if a basic system could be devised that could minimize the amount of cascading that would likely occur in a regular game, anyone making a mod would also have to arrange his structure so as to avoid such cascades. The challenge of avoiding cascades, while probably surmountable in practice, is almost certainly greater than the problem of adding multiple techs.

Although I do think a compositional structure remains attractive in a theoretical sense, it would in practical terms simply be too difficult to work with.

Sigh.

I just know I'm going to spend rest of the day kicking things. I think I'll start with ChrTh's thread.
 
Mxzs, this is one of the most interesting ideas I've come across on these boards in a very long time. Although this approach would have to work out a lot of difficult problems to be usable, I definitely don't think it should be discarded completely. The problems that this system would theoretically solve should be kept in mind when considering other technology models.

:goodjob:
 
Mxzs, this is one of the most interesting ideas I've come across on these boards in a very long time. Although this approach would have to work out a lot of difficult problems to be usable, I definitely don't think it should be discarded completely. The problems that this system would theoretically solve should be kept in mind when considering other technology models.

:goodjob:

Thanks. Today, though, my mind keeps wandering back to Nelson Goodman, whose ingenious "calculus of individuals" also ultimately succumbed to the stink of "So what?"

The idea of a building stuff out of sets might be applicable to units or buildings without running into the problems that would keep it from being used to model techs. Even if units are not literally structured in the game code as sets, the idea does naturally suggest some of the features I mentioned above with regard to units. For example:

* Infantry becomes Janissaries when the Slavery civic is turned on.
* Tanks lose all movement points when Oil is no longer available.
* Gunpowder units lose all but 2 combat points if all Barracks (or an advanced equivalent) are destroyed.
* Forges upgrade to Factories when Coal becomes available

Certain isolated techs might also be modeled in set-form, so that, for example, the tech become inoperative if you lose or just do not have certain buildings.

Of course, these are ideas people have advanced for a long time. There are probably coding or other technical issues that prevent them from being implemented, though.
 
As long as I'm savaging my own suggestion:

Part of the benefit of a tree is that instead of saying Z=A+B+C+D+E+...+X+Y, you can say Z=X+Y, Y=W+V, X=T+U... the structure is inherently organized. It's easier to navigate a tree from root-to-leaf than it is to assemble 20 discrete elements. Easier to learn "Chocolate Brownie is the third item on the Desert Branch, near the Cakes branch" than it is to learn "Chocolate Brownie = Butter + Chocolate + Baking Powder + Flour + Sugar + Eggs".

To make a long story short, if you're going to keep the techs-in-a-set easy to learn and remember... you're either going to need some clever abstraction. A tree is actually the easiest way to abstract several smaller ideas into one larger idea: "Brownie = Chocolate + Cake + Snack" and "Cake = Butter + Flour + Sugar + Eggs".

It's very easy to structure and remember sets in the say that you describe. Start with A=(C+D+E), B=(F+G+H), and then model Z as (A+B+I). The problem is that while this is useful in keeping things clear, it obscures the underlying reality that Z=(C+D+E+F+G+H+I), and that is what is important if you are going to try controlling the "cascade" effect. In fact, if you don't reach down and see that the higher-order sets are, at bottom, constructed out of all the base elements, you won't even see that the cascade effect is a danger.

That's one reason this proposal would be a danger and a snare to mod-makers. It would be very easy to fool yourself into thinking that because the Battleship-producing tech is a tenth-order set it would only appear late in the game. But if you accidentally arranged the intervening sets on narrow base of (say) eleven basic techs, you would get it quite early in the game if those happened to be the eleven techs you first acquired.

In fact, the only sure way to keep the most advanced techs from developing early would be to make sure that they had as their most elemental constituents a maximum number of basic techs. Whatever tech generated Stealth Bombers, for instance, would be best analyzed down so that it contained at least 80 basic techs.

I confess that, as a technical exercise, it still has some fascination for me. But it's too problematic to actually be used.
 
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