[GS] Temple of Artemis Vs. Colosseum

[Pure24]

As stated above. Tried comparing the two wonders, but I cannot really seem to figure out which one is better. Of course circumstance matters, but which one do you find as the consistently better wonder?
Also, I don't mean this to imply one is always better than the other, or that you must always prioritize one over the other, but just some insights on how the bonuses feel.

Of course I picked them because they both provide amenities. So when I was thinking about it, I came up with these points:
- Temple of Artemis is situational with how big its bonus amenities are depending on the available resources. But Colosseum is also dependent on the number of cities within the radius.

- Temple of Artemis comes much earlier (and perhaps easier to boost), but at the time (1). one may not need those amenities as much in this era (2). it competes more with the early game rushes such as settlers, unit spam etc...
- Temple of Artemis would give a boost to Drama and Poetry AND provide +2 to the theatre square by the time you get to the same point as being able to build Colosseum. While the A.I. seems to have a higher priority for building Temple of Artemis - making it harder to get - Colosseum requires more investment (Entertainment Complex + Arena) before you can even start building it.
- Meanwhile, Colosseum comes with an inherent +2 culture and provides more amenities in a more reliable way - especially given that you can't lose said amenities due to removing the relevant resource or by damage from disasters/pillaging. Furthermore, it comes at a time when you're likely to already have cities to benefit from the tile radius bonus (which also means less build-competition for other districts/units/projects).

I don't know. What do you think? If this was an elimination thread, how would you go?

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Colosseum's better; but I like finding a cool ToA site more, probably my favorite wonder in the game.

 

[ShakaKhan]

Colosseum highly over ToA IMO. I agree with you that perhaps the biggest factor is number of amenities, and Colosseum is going to have more the vast majority of the time. At higher difficulties, the competition for them is probably an even bigger consideration. While I've heard some stories of Colosseum going quickly to the deity AI, I've never experienced a problem with this myself - having a requirement that the wonder be built next to an entertainment district (which the AI, in my experience, prioritizes quite low) that has it's first tier building (again, low priority for the AI), I've frequently successfully built the Colosseum late enough to get the "old wonder" era boost, and well after I've established a core of cities. This is the paramount concern - it is imperative to both get an early military to be able to not necessarily defeat but at least be able to fend off early aggression with the Deity AI's bonus, as well as to be able to set up at least the core cities for your empire. The early, early wonders (particularly Stonehenge, Hanging Gardens, and Oracle, similarly investing in holy sites and getting beaten to all prophets) give bonuses that don't really outweigh the cost of delaying these two imperatives, and if you invest those precious early-game hammers and are beaten to it, you suffer not only losing the benefit of the wonder but also are delayed in the mandatory defense and expansion.So with ToA, you gamble your early game expansion and defense weighed against the extra amenities and may find yourself losing both. With Colosseum, you can get your expansion and defense first, and even then rarely lose out in your investment. The AI does seem to like to snag wonders away from the human player, but lacks the problem-solving ability to think "I want this (or don't want him/her to have it), so to get it I need to build that and then that."

Also have a slightly different perspective on amenities than you - I don't really consider them as a "don't really need it now but will need it later." Instead have more of a mentality of "need to collect them wherever I can throughout the game." Early game, really all the way up to neighborhoods, housing is a much more relentless ceiling factor than amenities (unless you get crazy out of control with prolonged wars.) Another consideration is the relatively potent bonuses city's get from happy and ecstatic status, which again favors Colosseum over ToA as more cities are affected by it (although you could argue that other amenities are redistributed, which then leaves the primary factor being total number of amenities which, again, usually favors Colosseum.)

 

[reddishrecue]

ToA. Its easily built and doesnt require a entertainment complex which sometimes is useless if theres enough luxuries for the empire. ToA has its special requirements but not as much as being next to an entertainment complex. But, if no one takes the coloseum after awhile then why not build it?

 

[Basajaun]

Im a fan of the Temple mostly. It just looks so cool, and helps a lot getting my first city to 10 pop thanks to the housing and amenities really fast.
Sometimes I will go for Coliseum, but its not common, I rarely build entertainment complexes soon enough

 

[Karmah]

None. I usually don't invest on early wonders. I do sometimes succumb to the charm of the pyramids.
If I had to choose one, it would be the colosseum simply because unless you are Canada, building ToA means dying to your neighbors at deity level and probably immortald too. It comes at a time where you should be building your defense, getting your first settlers, or gambling with scouts in hopes to get CS bonuses/hut. But not a wonder that will either get you killed or in the best case scenario less developed.

On terms of raw bonus comparison, I think @ShakaKhan pretty much covered it.

My two cents

 

[Disgustipated]

None. I usually don't invest on early wonders. I do sometimes succumb to the charm of the pyramids.

This. Pyramids I do go for if I can build it in a decent production city. It's about 50% success rate (maybe a little less) on emperor. I often take a chance on it. The 2 wonders in the OP are difficult to get, even on emperor. Even King has it's challenges, you can get them yes, but you sacrifice expanding to get it. As the post above says, you are missing out on a lot by going for them, but if you intend on playing a tall empire, by all means go for it.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

This. Pyramids I do go for if I can build it in a decent production city. It's about 50% success rate (maybe a little less) on emperor. I often take a chance on it. The 2 wonders in the OP are difficult to get, even on emperor. Even King has it's challenges, you can get them yes, but you sacrifice expanding to get it. As the post above says, you are missing out on a lot by going for them, but if you intend on playing a tall empire, by all means go for it.

On smaller maps ToA will sometimes go unbuilt for a while, at least on emperor

 

[bengalryan9]

This. Pyramids I do go for if I can build it in a decent production city. It's about 50% success rate (maybe a little less) on emperor. I often take a chance on it. The 2 wonders in the OP are difficult to get, even on emperor. Even King has it's challenges, you can get them yes, but you sacrifice expanding to get it. As the post above says, you are missing out on a lot by going for them, but if you intend on playing a tall empire, by all means go for it.

Colisseum does go fast, but Temple of Artemis can stick around for a bit even on Deity. It's a lot more reliant on geography as to whether or not it's worth chasing, though.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Play China and get both, obviously.

 

[UWHabs]

Colisseum does go fast, but Temple of Artemis can stick around for a bit even on Deity. It's a lot more reliant on geography as to whether or not it's worth chasing, though.

Yeah, I've seen some games where the ToA doesn't get built until late. Was a few patches ago but I remember one game where I Magnus-chopped it in with like 1 stone tile it was so late in the game.

 

[enKage]

I used to consider Coloseum better due to +2 culture per city, but it really requires a lot of investment, and often AI would build it before. Nonetheless when I can place it to benefit in 5 cities, I usually try.

OTOH Artemis grants only +2/+4/+6 culture from theates square around, but it has one great ability, you did not mention.
The PLAYER DECIDES which city gets ammenity from improvement, so you can easily make Pingala city with the highest happiness level while granting less ammenities to less important cities, just by switching tiles

 

[iammaxhailme]

Coloseum is better but much harder to get. I find ToA to be relatively accessible so I often go for it. I almost never go for the Coloseum becuase it takes too much investment to get an entertainment complex and an arena that early in the game when district slots are so precious and I usually want something else instead

 

[UWHabs]

I used to consider Coloseum better due to +2 culture per city, but it really requires a lot of investment, and often AI would build it before. Nonetheless when I can place it to benefit in 5 cities, I usually try.

OTOH Artemis grants only +2/+4/+6 culture from theates square above, but it has one great ability, you did not mention.
The PLAYER DECIDES which city gets ammenity from improvement, so you can easily make Pingala city with the highest happiness level while granting less ammenities to less important cities, just by switching tiles

TOA for me is more about making one super strong city. You plan it right and the city you build it in gets +4 food, +3 housing, and probably +3 amenities or so. While I don't often lack for those things in the city, I find if I can get that early ToA, the city very quickly grows to size 7-10 without any trouble (I mean, in housing alone you're probably going to have 6 base from the city, 3 more from ToA, and then another couple from the camps and pastures, so well over 10). That can help get the city working lots of production tiles and grow out.

Coloseum is great if you pack cities together, since you can get it affecting 5 or more cities, it can definitely be worth more total than the ToA, but the bonus is more spread around. It is nice because you can fully trade away your luxuries, so if you get lucky in the distribution it can be worth some nice gold too.

 

[Isengardtom]

Colosseum is strongest I think, but almost impossible to get on deity these days (used to be fairly easy). Artemis is possible to get although occasionally it goes quickly.

 

[Victoria]

I used to build pyramids and Coli.
Lately I have stopped the Coli if I can find another culture way and the amenities is not that brilliant. The issue for me with not building it is the Buttress eureka.
Toa I,ll build with a good spot and am happy using Pingala.
Often I just find them both too distracting.

 

[Bangau]

I rarely build them (or any other early wonders) on deity, only if it really suites the kind of game I'm playing (either 'roleplaying' a specific civ or going for a fast victory) AND I feel my chances of getting it before the AI does are high enough. I do love the games where I get wonders like these, it's always a little 'victory' seeing those wonder animations.

And if I had to choose? A well planned Colosseum is probably a little bit better, but not by much. A TOA in the right city can be a great boost.

 

[shaky]

I'll usually build/chop Artemis if I get the chance. The extra housing and food is amazing for growing an early city, the amenities are a bonus. Failing to finish it isn't the end of the world but you don't get that wasted district slot back when you get sniped on the Colosseum, so I hardly ever try for it early on, certainly not on larger maps when I'm competing with a higher number of civs. I have built it in my last couple of deity games though, as it was surprisingly still available long after T100, so it felt rude to not try, especially once I had high production cities and could get it up pretty quickly.

 

[Deadly Dog]

I find the Coliseum more universally beneficial, but I do like having a great site for ToA, will gladly try to build it after my first settler is out. Works really well with the Cree when you have a site for it in a city with multiple camps/pastures. While all other Cree cities will grow fast from trade routes to this kind of city with or without the ToA, the ToA allows that city to grow fast as well. Also once you have ToA makes it a lot easier to get Coliseum as well. OK, do I really need both wonders though? Sure! Why not?

I'm tempted to look for a saved game where I have Poundmaker+ToA+Goddess of the Hunt on a map where it really shines.

 

[reddishrecue]

At the deity level the coloseum could be a better bet because youre less likely to obtain luxuries and if you do you need more amenities than at the lower difficult levels.