Term 2 External Consulate - Policy Discussion.

[mad-bax]

I have detailed below the initial draft of the External Consulates policy for term 2. This thread is intended for discussion of the details within the policy.
I will post polls to allow the General Assembly to vote on issues that arise through this discussion, and will modify the policy where strong feeling exists, and where the changes do not compromise the rest of the policy.

External Consulate - Policy for Term 2

Long Term Trading
1. Trading should be performed to maximise profit.
2. Monopoly techs should not be bought unless a subsequent 2 for 1 deal (or better) is available.
3. Strategic and Luxury commodities should not be sold to Countries that we believe we may be at war with during this term.
4. No GPT based deals should be entered into with any Country that we believe we may be at war with within the following 20 turns.
5. In the event of a war with India, any peace deal should maximise the gain of technological advancements.
6. In the event of a war with The Netherlands, any peace deal should maximise the gain of territory.
7. A harbour should be built in a town that is connected to our capital as soon as is practicable, and in any case, within 10 turns of a harbour being constructed by a prospective trading partner.
8. Trading for Horseback Riding should be delayed for as long as possible to allow for the building of chariots. The precise timing for the purchse of this tech should be made by the Commander of the Armed Forces.

Long Term Foreign Affairs
China should be developed as a trading partner, and as a buffer against more distant civilisations.

1. An Embassy should be established with China prior to any war with another country.
2. Once an Embassy is established with China, any demands made by civilisations further from us than China should be refused.
3. Any demands made by India or The Netherlands made before war with these respective countries should be met. We should pay them.
4. Once our nation has reached a size of 12 cities, no demands should be paid, and this paragraph suercedes paragraphs 3 and 4 in this case.

Long Term War Plans

1. War must be declared on India on or before 700BC.
The aims of this war are:-

a) Capture the Indian Capital to secure the iron resource.
b) Secure a source of silks
c) Provide a strong strategic positin from which to launch a war against the Netherlands
d) Use the peace negotiation to gain technological advancement.

2. War must be declared on The Netherlands on or before 400BC.
The aims of this war are:-

a) Deprive The Netherlands of Iron
b) Deprive The Netherlands of Horses
c) Secure a source of Spices
d) Deprive the Netherlands of High Food City sites
e) Maximise territorial gain through peace negotiation.

The Commander of the Armed Forces will of course be responsible for delivering this plan. Battlefield operational plans and tactics, and unit and resource requirements are left to his discretion.

 

[Ulyaoth]

I'm just against going against India first. While we're going against India, the Dutch could just expand further north, and we'll have a tougher time rooting them out when the war comes. If we take the Dutch first, we'll block in the Indians, gain much more power and potential to expand, and can just deal with the Indians later on, as they'll be in the situation we're in now and will be weakened.

Otherwise, the rest of your plan looks great.

 

[DaveShack]

I'm pretty sure (but obviously have not actually seen) that there is nothing but water north of the Dutch. It might actually be cool if they develop E-NE because that would hem the Chinese in until we are ready for them.

The reason going for India first is starting to sound like a good idea can be found in CivGeneral's sig. To paraphrase -- don't feel like cutting and pasting right now -- never leave an enemy at your back, if you like living.

 

[greekguy]

we need to attack the Dutch first. (wow, i've typed that phrase alot) anyway, if we go for India first, and then the Dutch, we will have to face Swiss Merceneries later on,(probably) and those are extremely hard to kill. once they get one victory, they'll have a GA and be pumping out Swiss Merc. every turn basically. we can conquer the Dutch only if they are weak and without Swisses. we just need 8-12 swords, some horses and archers(maybe). even if we do a limited award against the Dutch, we'll gain some new oppurtunities to expand. (mostly east). IN conclusion, the Dutch must be annilihated, and assimilated into our great Fantannian Empire.

 

[GenMarshall]

I have given this a whole lot of thoughts on the dutch war and the division between the Indiacrats (Supporters of the Indian War) and the Dutchcrats (Supporters of the Dutch War.
To satisfy both sides of the issue. I plan to have the Dutch war to be a division of the Dutch land, In doing this we split up the Dutch while denying them iron. Once we have the dam constructed, we can establish peace with the Dutch (For a while untill the end of the Indian War) and then strike against the Indians. The dam in the Dutch will serve as a barrer to prevent the Dutch from moving troops and settlers into the indian teritory. The last thing we need is the Dutch creating more cities north of the Indians.

 

[LeeT911]

I'd like to ask the External Consul to make a push for embassies. Not only with China, which is a good idea, but also with both the Indians and the Dutch as well. This will give us valuable insight into both of their current capabilities. It will also allow us to investigate target cities prior to a declaration of war should the need arise.

I know embassies take money, but we currently have some to spare. Philosophy in 1, which will get us a free tech to trade around, possibly for more gold. And we have 200+ in our treasury. I really doubt we need to save much for sword upgrades. At the moment we have no veteran warriors, and our iron is already hooked up.

I've compiled a list of embassy prices with all currently known civilizations.
Netherlands: 37
Byzantines: 81
Japan: 99
Maya: 178
Portugal: 89
China: 48
India: 24
Persia: 65
Hittites: 89

It will take 109 gold to establish embassies with our three closest neighbours. That's half our treasury, but I think its worth it.

 

[mad-bax]

LeeT911: I'm guessing you drive a Porche in which case I hate you already.
Establishing Embassies with India and the Netherlands is a valid request. I will poll it and incorporate the result into the policy.

CivGeneral:
There are 4 options that have been discussed.
1. War with the Dutch First.
2. War with the Indians First.
3. Cultural warfare (proposed by Provolution)
4. No aggressive development at all for the time being.

Rather than poll these options with no explanation, I would ask that you draw up battle plans for both option 1 and option 2. I will combine these with the other options and poll them all. These plans should show how the strategic objectives that have been set by the consulate will be met within the target timeframe.

 

[Octavian X]

This all looks great, mad-bax. I look forward to working closely with your office over the coming term.

Three things come to mind:
- I'm in agreement with all the plans you've laid out in this thread, and am particularly glad that you are laying out strategic goals for the war. I do, though, have a reservation regarding your China policy - paying them like that to simply retain a polite relationship doesn't seem entirely beneficial, and, as with any expenditure, looks very painful.

- Buying three embassies in China, the Netherlands, sounds like a good idea to me.

- Allies in the war effort might be important. If the price is right, I think some foreign assistance would be good from rivals nearby. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[mad-bax]

I have polled the idea of making a gift to China. We cannot trade using gpt yet, only lup sum. The only way to tie China to a gpt deal is to gift it to them. 10g +1gpt is the minimum payment to acheive the maximum hardcoded change in attitude. By giving China 1gpt it improves their attitude, which I believe will make future MA's easier to get, and by giving gpt will discourage a strong neighbour from declaring war on us.
However, the people will decide via the poll.

Buyin embassies does several things. 1 of these is improving attitude, another is allowing us to inspect a captal city, and also it allows for the signing of MA's. All three of these things are valuable to us with a potential ally. Only one of these is valuable to us as a potential foe. I have polled the various options, and again the people will decide. My preference is to establish an embassy with China quite soon, and to wait and see for the Dutch and Indians.

One future change that may be made to the external consulates plan is to weaken other civs through war. Particularly I have Persia in mind, but would prefer to start wars amongst many of the distant civs with various MA's to construct a web of alliances that would be both difficult for the AI to extricate themselves from without ruining their reputation, and would also prolong the wars. With China as a powerful buffer nation, we would be relatively safe. This would lower the tech rate, and weaken other civs. This plan is best executed once the AI have switched to Republic since war weariness would then increase the effectiveness of the plan.

I would not entertain an MA with any war vs India or the Dutch, for the somple reason that such wars would likely only last six to ten turns and being tied to 20 turns could leave us with a problem, or at least fewer options.

 

[GenMarshall]

I have recived a letter from Ginger Ale that has kind of made me move to the moderate possition in the Dutchcrat and Indiancrat debates and discussions. I was moved by his letter and further examine the save with the clean view and realized that there is a source of iron that is on top of the dutch city (For thoes of you who dont have C3C, look at one of the maps that is using the"Easy to spot resources mod")

As you can see, the Dutch city of Utrecht is founded on an iron resource and is one of the Dutch's core cities. If I went along with the original plan, we would have several autorazed cities and a failed attemt to contain the Dutch and removing their access to iron. This has made me move more to be inclined to invade the Indians first to establish more bases of operation to build more swordsmen and spears (Since I have a feeling that we will see a swords vs swords battles in the future in the war against the Dutch).

 

[Bertie]

Have I congratulated you on your lofty new position, mod-bax?



This is a model plan: well organized, carefully considered, clear, straightforward to execute.

One comment. “Trading should be performed to maximize profit.” I agree with this; I only suggest that we discuss the meaning of “profit.” (This also speaks partially to Octavian X’s concern about overpaying China.) It’s tempting to define profit only in monetary terms. I would define profit to mean “advantageous”. A good example of this is the suggestion to gift China gold. Clearly this is a short term monetary loss. However, our profit is that we deflect their potential aggression towards us to other targets, both allowing us to develop unmolested and causing other civs some grief using China as our proxy. A double win: an extremely profitable deal, IMO. I believe you are actually saying this; I just wanted to make it explicit so we all understand what a profitable deal might be.

This is also relevant because you’re polling the China question.

 

[LeeT911]

LeeT911: I'm guessing you drive a Porche in which case I hate you already.
Establishing Embassies with India and the Netherlands is a valid request. I will poll it and incorporate the result into the policy.

For the record, I'm a dirt poor university student who doesn't own a car, let alone a Porsche.

I suggested it because at the moment, it seemed like we had excess money which was in danger of being extorted from us. However, if we follow the plan you laid out in your "Disaster Avoidance" thread, we're going to need all the gold we can get (to upgrade warriors/chariots).

It seems support is swinging towards the Indian war. In that case I still advocate putting up an embassy with India as that will give us an inspection of a prime military objective (Delhi). However, an embassy with the Dutch would be important too, to improve their attitude and decrease their chance of declaring war on us while we are otherwise engaged. India and Netherlands may have an embassy with each other, if they ally against us, it won't be pretty.

 

[TimBentley]

It seems support is swinging towards the Indian war. In that case I still advocate putting up an embassy with India as that will give us an inspection of a prime military objective (Delhi).

In that case I would advise delaying the embassy until we are almost ready to attack, to make sure we have more recent information.

Another reason to establish embassies is to see who knows whom. It's obvious there are some communications that are lacking (trade costs compared between India and the Dutch were certainly a sign of that), but it would be helpful to know.

 

[mad-bax]

One comment. “Trading should be performed to maximize profit.” I agree with this; I only suggest that we discuss the meaning of “profit.”

Yes it was a bit of a "Dolly Parton sleeps on her back" statement of the obvious.

This made me realise that my trading plan is very weak, and so I gave it some more thought.

The plan as a whole should aim to facilitate the long term objective of winning by 130K. Some of the factors that contribute to this have been discussed, but trading has not and I am guilty of overlooking an important facet of the game. I aplogise for this.

Getting to 130K is one thing. We can get to domination, we can ICS like mad, build culture like mad, and we get to 130K. That's fine.

In another thread, there was a post, also by Bertie that said something to the effect that we have to prevent the AI from winning first. This was another important post.

It is my opinion now that we already know all the techs we need to know in order to win the game. Unfortunately the AI will continue to research, which in turn we must advance too in order to remain in control of the game.

Anyway... to cut to the chase:-
We should try to keep the tech pace as slow as possible, to give us more time before we have to worry about space races and infantry etc. The slower the tech pace, the better for us. Trading will be an important part of this, and I am going to post a trading strategy and a war strategy that I think will help achieve it. It's late here now... so I will leave you in suspense for a little while.

Bertie: No-one has asked to deputise for me in this office. I would be really happy if you would consider taking the job.

 

[mad-bax]

In that case I would advise delaying the embassy until we are almost ready to attack, to make sure we have more recent information.

I agree Tim. I don't decide exactly when embassies should be built however, just with who and in what circumstances.

 

[LeeT911]

I agree with TimBentley as well. I'm not pushing to have these embassies built right now. As long as we have them before any war is fine by me. Of course it would be more advantageous if we could get the most recent information.

Another reason to establish embassies is to see who knows whom. It's obvious there are some communications that are lacking (trade costs compared between India and the Dutch were certainly a sign of that), but it would be helpful to know.

Does establishing embassies allow us to see who knows who? Contact trading is pushed back to Printing Press in C3C.

 

[classical_hero]

Does establishing embassies allow us to see who knows who? Contact trading is pushed back to Printing Press in C3C.

No, but you can always check this by looking at the F4 screen.

 

[Bertie]

:Bertie: No-one has asked to deputise for me in this office. I would be really happy if you would consider taking the job.

Wow, m-b, I’m honored. Thank you for asking me. I wasn’t planning to hold any position this term nor do I think it likely that I’ll ever run for an office (preferring to make a universal pest of myself rather than narrow my attentions), so my initial reaction was to decline your offer.

However, a recent post by donsig has influenced me greatly. He spoke of how important it is that everyone contributes actively, which is a given; but also that “having a *job* in the demogame (whether elected or not) makes it more fun.” I think he’s right about the job. Although I think my natural “job” might be more of a gadfly, our civ is at a critical juncture; your office has numerous responsibilities and a huge workload; and I know I can contribute.

You're doing an excellent job so I don’t think you actually need a deputy. But if you wish to take me on, I accept, and with pleasure. Please let me know if there are specific tasks you’d like me to accomplish, or whether you’d prefer that I act in more general ways to help achieve the goals of the External Office.

 

[blackheart]

In that case I would advise delaying the embassy until we are almost ready to attack, to make sure we have more recent information.

Another reason to establish embassies is to see who knows whom. It's obvious there are some communications that are lacking (trade costs compared between India and the Dutch were certainly a sign of that), but it would be helpful to know.

Embassies cost more later ingame, I think. So it is advantageous for us to develop embassies now, with everyone. We can call for allies during war if we need it.

 

[mad-bax]

Bertie: You can develop a policy for keeping the tech rate slow among the opponent AI if you like for now. Other than that I'll get in touch probably Monday so we can start on all the other stuff.

blackheart: 50g now is not the same as 50g in a hundred turns. Absolute cost and relative cost are not the same thing. IMO the key is to time the embassy build to take best advantage of the benefits it gives. However, it is not for me to specify the turn on which it happens. I believe that honour falls to the Director of commerce, though I could be wrong.