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The 4 rules of Wonder addiction

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by Ision, Dec 7, 2003.

  1. jediliz

    jediliz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2004
    Messages:
    23
    I read the article and I disagree about NEVER building the great library. When I play Civilization, I have no desire to conquer the other civilizations. I want to do the space race. I've gotten at times where I have to do little science so it'll take like 4000 turns to get the specific technology researched. I can't afford that. Great Library helps me stay on top so I'm not the "puny americans" or the "mediocre" english or whoever. Also, other civilizations brag to me or call me priminitive when I don't have something they have. So, Great Library is necessary. At least for me. Otherwise, the article was well written.
     
  2. Sukenis

    Sukenis the J'BOOtian Warlord

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    461
    Location:
    Southeast Missouri
    So do you quit if you do not get the Great Library?
     
  3. MikeH

    MikeH Prince

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    Jun 10, 2004
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    The Great Library gives you nothing that you can't get by trading techs with AI, I tend to play fairly peacefully (most of the time :) ) and think it's one of the biggest waste of resources in the game. I won't even use a Scientific GL to build it.
     
  4. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    Germany
    How useful the GL is depends IMO on the relative difficulty level you play - more than any other wonder.As long as you play on a level you win almost always and without problems it is a waste, if you move up and must fight for the victory it is nice to have it and if you try a level at which you normally haven't got any change it can save your live (although even there are ways to win without it, I'm sure)
     
  5. Longasc

    Longasc Deity

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    I think the problem is to get the GL on higher levels... I get it usually... by capture. ;)
     
  6. MikeH

    MikeH Prince

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    Actually at the higher levels you probably won't be able to build it before the AI :) . Edit: Whoops Lonasc beat me to it. The thing is if you are playing on the higher levels you've probably got tech trading mastered and as the GL only gives you tech that two other civs that you have contact with discover I don't think it's worth the expense.
     
  7. Sneakysnaga

    Sneakysnaga Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    36
    Great article Ision!:)

    I'm thinking that the Wonder fixation ISN'T the worst ever newbie error. To me, the worst is hitting the worker automate button. That HAS to be absolutely ruled out! You can be smarter with workers than the AI, and in a significant way too. But hitting automate surrenders the opportunity.

    That was definitely my worst trait. Its pure laziness, and anyone who uses it deserves to die, nastily!:D
     
  8. JackRules

    JackRules incompertus vapulus

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2002
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    216
    Location:
    the back 9
    I just got my first Regent win (on my first attempt) and Ision's article, along with a lot of info picked up from GK2 Training Day, certainly helped me to accomplish my victory. I always went for GL and any other wonders I could get my hands on, but I've found they really tie up my cities that could be churning out units. I think a select one or two wonders is fine after your expansion phase is complete, but there's definitely no need to rely on wonders to win a game.
     
  9. FreeTheSlaves

    FreeTheSlaves Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
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    53
    I am in the process of getting my first emperor win by conquest (MPPs dog-piling one civ at a time) and I would have had a hard time if I had tried to pursue the early wonders.

    After reading this article and giving it some thought, I came to the conclusion that I was not able to compete early on wonder-wise. That accepted, it then became a case of using those shields to build strength and developments.

    A bit later on I managed leonardo's and adam smiths & techs aint gonna matter once I've got panzers. I managed to trade techs for virtual parity.

    (Panzers = Golden age) Mobilized German Communists - that is the end game I'm going to have because I always had an "average" to "strong" military from the ancient age. This military was used to grasp luxeries & resources and cripple immediate rivals.

    Frankly I am of the opinion that wonders are gravy. They are worth shooting for (Leonardo's for my large military) if you can time it but not one is essential.
     
  10. FreeTheSlaves

    FreeTheSlaves Chieftain

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    That's true but I find just prior to railroads and a while afterwards that workers clog the game up. For the ancient age especially you must manage the workers most carefully.
     
  11. rysingsun

    rysingsun King

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
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    959
    (!)

    thanks for posting this. you have sparked my curiosity and i think i may give this a go. in the spirit of the original post ill stick to it even though it goes against my instincts just to see what happens. while i wont be surprised if i get slaughtered i also wont be surprised if i win big time. after all my own history teaches me that untraditional gameplay styles can often bring about surprising results. and if i have any vice in civ its improvement addiction.
     
  12. rysingsun

    rysingsun King

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    Jul 22, 2002
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    everything.

    the cities.

    the workers.

    the settlers. (think hard where you will send them.)

    the diplomacy. yes the diplomacy! and not just for trades. skilled diplomacy will get you out of some very sticky situations.
     
  13. kulgan

    kulgan New Noble

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2002
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    64
    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    In Cheiften it is *easy* to progress to 12 cities before AD without building a single improvement.

    Recently I played (generic Civ3) as romans. I research though to legioniers and destroyed the world before 100AD.

    This article has been inspirational. It has had the biggest impact on my game. Micromanagement is the key no wonders.

    BTW my build order is, Worker, Settler, (pop settler by adding worker back after a stint in the open building roads.),... and repeat. Depending on my barbarian threat the second city does, warrior, worker, settler.

    In Cheiften you don't need a wonder unless you really need it to complete the victory goal.
     
  14. punkbass2000

    punkbass2000 Des An artiste

    Joined:
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    A(sia) Minor
    Agreed. I have a game running at Chieftain with 20 cities, the ToA and several libraries at 470BC.
     
  15. genghis_khev

    genghis_khev Surviving Monarch Level

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2003
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    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    I read and I scoffed.

    I then tried and now I understand!

    I allowed myself minor wonders but no great wonders and actually found it one of my easiest games!! Why I don't know.

    Either way I suggest all try a limited / nio wonder game! All in all top advice Ision
     
  16. Stuporstar

    Stuporstar Warlord

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    Location:
    Canada
    I'm going to try this advice in my next game. I've been far too Wonder reliant in all my games. Great article Ision.
     
  17. Peter Harris

    Peter Harris Warlord

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    May 11, 2003
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    Location:
    Australia
    I agrre absolutely with the original post in this thread. I think the player has two choices, either get over the wonder addiction or stay at the lower levels.

    I find that I do much better if I don't build ancient wonders and instead concentrate on settlers, workers and an adequate military. (but I am a "wonder addict" so I stay at regent level rather than moving up to higher levels). :D
     
  18. JZ_UK

    JZ_UK

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    Location:
    UK
    I'm going to go against the grain and say no... I disagree with you.

    Why? Because I like building wonders (I do select them for their usefulness)... but I build them because I avoid war until its an absolute must... say when I hit Ind/Mod and need coal/oil.

    Yea... sometimes I find the superpower of the game has just about enveloped me, but theres pretty much inveitably a weaker power out their that you can plunder should you need lebienstrasa (been a while since I did german...) or wait till the superpower starts eating him and pick up the scraps...

    Theres a lot to be said for selective pacifism :D personally... I like being the one totally free power when the world suddenly errupts into a great big WW... means you can act pretty much freely :)
     
  19. REJS7

    REJS7 The silence that stalks

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
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    Location:
    York UK
    Despite all that I have read here, and despite agreeing with the overall tone of the discusion, I would argue that Wonders play a crucial part of an effective stratergy below Emperor level.
    Pre C3C it would be OK to maybe only build the Pyramids in the ancienct era as all the others become obsolete, but after they introduced the Temple of Artemis and Temple of Zeus it becomes critical to deny your opponent (AI or human) these two wonders. I usually still stick to the pyramids and one of the happyness wonders in my capital BUT only after sending out 2 or 3 settlers.
    I know that strategic addaption is the focus of this debate and being flexable against any opponent is ey to success, but is it not better to deny your opponent the oppotunity to a key advantage (such as quick terretorial expansion with the temple of artemis)?
    At the end of the day it makes a difference if you can quickly build 10 or 15 cities with temples but then your opponent is able to expand in 5 turns with any new city they get. Even a rapid conquest on opposing cities would be negated by this.
    C3C seems to make a moot point of wonder feasabillity. One way to get around the tech gap is to use scouts and goody huts with an expansionist CIV (I usually manage to remain on parity through trade, discoveries and research) - the other is to rely on warfare which is unrelyable at best (no battle plan ever survived contact with the enemy) and unless you manage to overwhelm your opponent you will end relying on others to finish the task :mad:.
    At the end of the day wonders provide the monach or below with a valuable tool through which they can exersise precise control of CIV weakness. Over reliance (as stated so eloquently elsewhere) leads to disaster and frustration due to player not learning to addapt.
    Here are is a 5 point practical guide for using wonders that I find helps :scan::
    1) Always have one wonder on the go and if the AI grabs it switch to another - this falls flat obviously if there are no wonders left, but thats what diplomacy, research, and trade are for.
    2) Think strategically; do you NEED this wonder or is it just a want? Are the pyramids going to provide more long term benefits than the temple of zeus?
    3) Life is like a box of chocolates; you never get the one you want. Never assume you are going to get the wonder you aim for. Have a reserve on your wish list.
    4) Place wonders as the last item on your wish list. Wonders are a luxury (a fabulous one), but they will rarely bring you victory.
    5) Lastly, is this wonder a pet project or a vital tool to my CIV?

    Finally Ision thankyou for opening up a can of worms ;) and giving a very usuful insight in to a key are of the game.
     
  20. Cataphract887

    Cataphract887 Prince

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    Location:
    Michigan

    on diety or higher,you can get it when the AI's build the other wonders so fast,the wonder cascades never happan(to the GL)
     

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