The Cartel

[Mal_da_Despot]

September 17th ---
This idea is not viable and we will not be playing the PBEM that is described. I will propose an alternative in another thread. This thread may be deleted.

Thanks..
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A modest proposal

If you have ever played the Double Your Pleasure (DyP) Scenario you know it has twice the number of technologies and at least twice the number of everything else. And if you have ever been crazy enough to play this game on the huge world map (Guilty 3 times), you know that this game can last for quite near an eternity. So what would possibly be your incentive to play DyP on the Huge World Map as a PBEM?

Well what I propose is to take Multiplayer cheating to its broadest extreme. What I mean is, 4 or 5 players playing with the best interest of the group. For this game, I have decided to use the word Cartel to describe this group. This cartel will work together to research in parallel, to back one another up, to control resources and technology, and to keep the AI players in servitude.

The primary goal of the cartel is to dominate the World. With the following sub-goals to affirm that the primary goal has been meet.
A) Every 'settle-able' piece of real estate has had a city founded upon it. (i.e. There is no more land to settle, anywhere.) This doesn't mean every city is exactly 2 tiles apart.

B) Every AI civilization is alive. Of course, there are special circumstances where an AI civ will be no more. Such as killed by another AI civ. And there is special dispensation for the American civ group player which will be discussed in the first draft of the cartel's charter.

C) Every AI civ has one and only one city. (Not exactly a reversed OCC ). This is not an on going goal, this is a final goal after the cartel's dominance has been well established.

D) No AI civ is in possession of a Great Wonder. We can't do much about Small Wonders and civ specific wonders.

E) The cartel has built roads on all of the land tiles in its collective cultural influence. This is usually the first of all basic improvements. (i.e. We have civilized it all.) The cartel could also ratify that they want all jungles and forests cut down as an additional test of world domination.

F) The cartel has reached a currently unspecified level of technology. Basically, if sub-goals A through E have been meet or nearly meet, the cartel will vote on how much longer to keep this experiment alive and whether or not to establish a new primary goal.


The civilizations in DyP are split into civ groups as follows:

Mediterranean - Rome, Egypt, Greece, Carthaginians
Middle East - Babylon, Persia, Zululand, Ottoman, Arabs, Ethiopia, Mali
European - Germany, Russia, France, England, Spanish, Vikings, Celts
Asian - China, Japan, India, Mongols, Koreans, Polynesia, Siam, Tibet
American - America, Aztecs, Iroquois, Inca, Sioux

If there are five people interested in playing, I would suggest that we all start in a different civ group. Once we have all selected our respective civ group, we will then choose which civ to actually play. Since the game involves subduing(/parasiting off) but not anhilating the AI players, the cartel will decide how best to shuffle the remaining AI civs so that everyone 'controls' the same number. (i.e. Middle East has 7 but Mediterranean only has 4).

31 civs - 5 players = 26 AI civs. 5 underlings per human player with 1 free-for-all AI civ (probably Polynesia)

31 civs - 4 players = 27 AI civs. 6 underlings per human player with 3 free-for-all AI civs.
Etc.

Seeing how this will take quite a while, I would imagine that one of the basic qualifications for the members of this PBEM is being a builder. I can play either builder or warmongerer, but since DyP is a builders dream come true, I usually play it in this way.

I would also suggest using PTW (1.27f) so that we can use all 31 player spots. And that we use the new DyP v1.50 with the Huge Earth Map. If there is sufficient interest to start a VANILLA and a PTW game, we can discuss that too. I will put the first draft of the charter in the next post.

The AI civs are usually too docile at chieftain for this to be much of a challenge. I would suggest Warlord or Regent. I have never won at Monarch, but I am willing to go to it if the majority of players want to.


The final disclaimer. I am new to PBEM (never done it) but not to CivII and CivIII. I am not claiming the position of game moderator, I am just putting this out there. If there are 3 or 4 more people out there who want to play this game with me and none of you want to moderate, then I will be happy to do it. Also, if there is to be 5 of us and we choose to go by civ groups to split up our underlings and no one wants to play the American civ group, I will take it. The American civ group is at a severe disadvantage on the one hand because it is isolated from the other cartel members. On the other hand, that might be the challenge that you have been looking for.

I look forward to your comments.
Thank You.

 

[Mal_da_Despot]

The Cartel Charter (First Draft)
==========================
1. MPP/RoP whith each cartel member for entire game free of charge

2. Each member will be responsible for their share of cartel Embassies.
- 5 members means there are 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10 Embassies to build. Each member will pay the cost of establishing 2 cartel embassies. If a cartel member finds themselves in the mathematically possible position of only being able to build 1 or none cartel embassies, they will gift the amount to a cartel member(s) who can build a 3rd or 4th Embassy.

3. Non-Aggression pact with all cartel members
- Will not start wars with other cartel members (unless agreed upon by all)
- Will not start wars with non-cartel AI players or provoke them into war (unless voted on)
-- This is on the honor system. A war started by refusing to pay tribute is acceptable. But remember you may not be able to count on much help in the beginning. So don't piss off someone who can make you dig your own grave until the power of the cartel is established.
-- Territory Violation, Goading, etc. is not acceptable.
-- Can defend and take territory. All cartel members who can aid will aid (MPP or by declaration)
- Will not take last AI city without a vote. (We will want the AI civs alive but on life support)
- Will not make MPP deals with AI players. This is to prevent a human-vs-human player war. Military Alliances will probably be okay unless someone can think of a scenario where this could be detrimental to the cartel.
- Can make RoP deals with AI for whatever you can squeeze out of them.
-- This should be by civ group. (i.e. China can muscle all the Asian AI civs)

4. Will gift World Maps, Territory Maps, AI contacts and new Technology to all cartel members every turn.
- Will not sell World Maps to AI Players (until voted upon)
- Can sell/trade Territory Maps to any AI player (squeeze civ group AIs if possible)
- Will not sell/trade technology to AI players until cartel has voted to release that technology. (This should probably be done by a single player to all the known AIs to maximize profits. The human player then gifts the split booty to the other members.)

5. Will trade extra Luxuries and Strategic Resources to cartel members at cartel set prices.
- These prices will be set by vote, but I would assume all would agree that we could come up with a fairer price/trade for resources than our AI 'friends'. 1 for 1 trade of Luxuries would probably be agreeable.
- All other Luxury surpluses may be sold to civ group AIs for what ever you can squeeze out of them.
- Luxuries can also be sold to AI players outside of your civ group but only on a per deal permission basis by the cartel member who controls that civ group. (i.e. If I want to sell my Tobacco to the Celts; I need to get permission from the cartel member (Germany) and probably throw him a piece of the action. After all I am squeezing one of his underlings/customers now.) Due to time constraints, I would suggest that you ask for permission from everyone before you have the resource available to trade. (i.e. Asian player says he will have a Silk available in 2 turns and would like to find a buyer. If the AI civ he finds does not belong to the Asian civ group he will compensate the real Overlord, cartel member, with a 20% cut. All the cartel members who agree to that make their underlings available for that one resource and that one resource deal. The Asian player makes the deal, and if all cash, send the cut to the cartel member. If not all cash, then the 2 cartel members negotiate the cut.)
-- You will end all deals after 20 turns with AIs outside your civ group no matter how lucrative unless you regain permission. Plus, this is an opportunity to squeeze for a better deal.
- Strategic Resources have a small caveat. The cartel will vote when to allow the sale/trading of strategic resources. (i.e. We may not want Rome or any other AI civ to acquire Iron/Saltpeter/whatever until we are in a position to handle their potential threat.) Once the cartel has voted to sell/trade a resource, all cartel members are permitted to squeeze their civ group AIs freely and with permission+graft to AIs outside their civ group.

6. Since the primary aim of the cartel is the complete domination of the world by the cartel, research can be done in parallel. Since we will gift technology amongst ourselves and hold back technology from the AI players, we can afford to expand out fast and not worry about getting left behind. The cartel will come to an agreement as to who should research what and how fast it should be done.

7. The first tasks of the non-American cartel members is to pump out settlers and scouts.
A) Grab those goody huts.
B) Make those AI civ contacts.
C) Link up the cartel members intelligence network.
D) Establish your core cities.

8. The American cartel member. You are all alone. There is no way for use to get to you. We won't be able to help you with Tech and Troops for many turns. And resources for many turns after that. We will however keep track of every cartel profiting exchange made. And you will keep track of any monies gained through technology and resource trading. If your amount is lower than what you would have received being located on the main land mass, we will gift you the difference. You have carte blanche of the American continents until we link you up to the intelligence network. That means you can soil your reputation as much as you need to, to survive and thrive on your own. Though try not to get any of the AI civs killed off, these are your underlings. Once you are linked up, the other cartel members have a say on how you conduct your business. Very special considerations will be made to get you on par with the rest of the cartel. Since your civ group will be in total isolation for a long while, we can set a different standard for technology release on the American continent.

9. The cartel will establish a Navy to explore, suppress barbarians, and suppress AI knowledge of the world (until we see fit to sell them a World Map ). This will probably require Naval blockades as well as patrolling ships for barbarians.

10. Wonders. The cartel may miss one or two of the very first Great Wonders but this will only mean that city will be targeted by the cartel at a later date. Since we will control the technology, we can be reasonably assured that only cartel members will build Great Wonders. The cartel will vote on which member will build the wonder. And what compensation would be appropriate to the other members.

11. The cartel will vote on issues that affect the cartel in a very informal matter. As ideas come up and as threats start to mature, any cartel member can call for a vote on any topic. If the idea/threat can wait for all members to vote then that is the most ideal. If everyone(unanimous) can agree that the issue is minor, then a simple majority is sufficient to pass the resolution.

12. Any resolution deemed by any member to be a major issue requires a unanimous vote to pass. An amendment or change to the Cartel Charter once ratified and play has started is considered a major issue.

13. The cartel will elect a cartel president who has 'Emergency powers'. The cartel president holds the proxy vote of any member who will be away on vacation, or who can not otherwise vote in a timely manner. So that issues both minor and major can be worked out quickly. The term of the cartel president will be voted by the cartel members.

14. Since the goal of anyone player is in relative harmony to the cartel as a group. A cartel member may give permission for another cartel member to play his turn to the best of his abilities. This can be worked out on a per instance basis. The idea is to 'potentially' relieve the player of any stress knowing that the other players are waiting for him/her to get back from vacation/business trip/etc to play their turn. The duties of the turn giver are to document what your near term goals are so that the turn taker can carry out those goals in your absence.

15. The cartel will not engage in any known exploits or cheats. If you think anything you will be doing falls in to this category than call for a vote. The power of the cartel is cooperation and sharing of information. By all means, anything that affects the cartel or any one member should be discussed with votes/intelligence reports/anything. (i.e. Hey Bob, I see a Babylon SoD heading toward your city of X. I will start mobilizing an expeditionary force to aid you if they attack.)

---end first draft ---

Any one is welcome to comment on any of these charter rules while positions for membership are open.
Once we have all the members of the cartel, I will post a second draft of the charter with the comments added.
The members of the cartel will then vote in each rule until there are no more rules (Each rule unanimous vote required.)
Once there are no more admendments, the cartel will vote to ratify the charter.
With a ratified charter, division of underlings, and each members civ choice known, we can begin the game.

 

[anarres]

Not that I play DyP often, or that I would have time for something like this, but are you aware that PBEM (or any MP) games support a maximum of 8 plyers?

Maybe a DyP Succession Game is more feasable?

Oh, and welcome to CFC!

 

[Mark Young]

This sounds like a good idea.

May I suggest that everyone uses the same instant messaging, I have MSN which I prefer and I also have AIM.

Since it is Dyp I would prefer it to be on regent, but I can play other levels as well.
Because of the way that we can interact with one another, It will give us an advantage. If it is played on a lower level the game may be TOO easy after a certain point. I guess the thing is to make sure that we dont dominat TOO easily and TOO quickly.

You can put me down for at least 1 turn/day.
I have PTW 1.21f
I would like to play as the Egyptians.

 

[Mal_da_Despot]

anarres - Here are the methods behind this madness as it were, and of course is up to debate, and I appreciate you bringing up these points for us to look at since I could only write up so much before boring a person so much that they quickly hit the next link thread and exactly how far do you think I can carry on a run on sentence.

I propose DyP for several reasons, mainly because of the Huge Earth Map which all the players will know and can consult regardles of the Fog of War. And in PTW we can use all 31 start positions, which will eventually give the catel many 'vassel' AI states. So far everything I have said would also eqally apply to TETurkhan's fantastic scenario as well (which I have played on several occasions. Nothing like playing the Iriquois, hitting Navigation, and still not beings able to build anything better than Provateer. )

DyP starts to shine and take off when you realize that since the tech tree is twice as big, the tech gap between the cartel and the AIs can be made enormous. The cartel is basically playing the 'Pope' tactic of controling tech. But in addition the cartel will be building better troops and deciding on how best to engage in limited wars to reduce the AIs to one city vassal states.

Also with DyP, a player with a builder mentality can build some pretty impressive empires.

4 or 5 cartel members divides up the vassel AIs pretty well and will allow for 'quicker' turn turn-around. Hopefully. Than would 6, 7 or 8 cartel members. 1,2, & 3 would seem to be too small a number to ensure survival of all the vassal AIs and would take longer for the cartel to gain domination.

I looked at succession games earlier. But it seemed like this was one person against 30 AIs for set number of turns and then someone else took over. Maybe this is just the plain vanilla version of succession games and you have a slightly more complicated idea in mind, which I would love to hear.

thanks.

 

[Mal_da_Despot]

Originally posted by Sir Eric
[May I suggest that everyone uses the same instant messaging, I have MSN which I prefer and I also have AIM.

Instant Messaging could work. I have MSN as well. And I may still have an AIM account somewhere.

Since it is Dyp I would prefer it to be on regent, but I can play other levels as well.
Because of the way that we can interact with one another, It will give us an advantage. If it is played on a lower level the game may be TOO easy after a certain point. I guess the thing is to make sure that we dont dominat TOO easily and TOO quickly.

I will put you down as an initial vote for Regent level play.

You can put me down for at least 1 turn/day.
I have PTW 1.21f
I would like to play as the Egyptians. [/B]

I have the 1.27f version of the patch installed, but I could always drop a patch level to allow more of our European friends to play. I will put you down as the Mediterranean cartel member with a preference for Egyptians.

Thanks for throwing your hat into the ring.

 

[Mark Young]

Originally posted by Mal_da_Despot



I have the 1.27f version of the patch installed, but I could always drop a patch level to allow more of our European friends to play. I will put you down as the Mediterranean cartel member with a preference for Egyptians.

Ahh.... I'm an Australian

 

[anarres]

No, there is a hard-coded limit of 8 players in a PBEM (or any MP) game.

This means you can only have a total of 8 players, whether they be human or AI. If you have 5 humans, you can only have 3 AI.

For this reason I suggested an SG - because otherwise your DyP map will have only 8 players in it, not 32.

 

[Mal_da_Despot]

Originally posted by anarres
No, there is a hard-coded limit of 8 players in a PBEM (or any MP) game.

This means you can only have a total of 8 players, whether they be human or AI. If you have 5 humans, you can only have 3 AI.

For this reason I suggested an SG - because otherwise your DyP map will have only 8 players in it, not 32.

Ouch.. That does put a huge damper on my idea. I'll have to play test to confirm that.

 

[anarres]

Please do, but I am right - there is only room for 8 players in the MP setup screen.

I had planned for a TET PBEM, but with 8 players it might get a bit lonely...

 

[Mal_da_Despot]

Yeah, I just did a quick one playing Germany and Zululand, the only civs in Europe and Africa were the ones it said were playing.

 

[Mal_da_Despot]

I hate the idea of such a radical compromise but needing to actually play this game within the confines of reality and limitations of PBEM/MP, how about this:

Go to either a Normal or a Large well known map.
Play either 3 humans against 5 AIs or 2 humans against 6 AIs.
Regent, DyP.

What do you think Sir Eric ?

 

[Mark Young]

Is you idea still feasible with such a small amount of players?

If it has to be such a small number may I suggest leaving the Americas unsettled and have all the civs in europe/asia/africa? If there are any civs on the AMericas it will give them an advantage due to the space that they can expand into will minimal resistance.

If your looking for a smaller how about the europe map by the stones fan? I've played it and it's pretty good. It can be made to accomadate 8 civs but it isn't DyP compatible, yet, though that isn't a problem to do.

Just a couple of questions...

D) No AI civ is in possession of a Great Wonder. We can't do much about Small Wonders and civ specific wonders.

If you change the ai's ability in the editor to not make wonders, wont that cripple the ai a bit too much? Half the game is beating the ai to a wonder but if they cant actuallu build it then thats taking out a big part of the game.

C) Every AI civ has one and only one city. (Not exactly a reversed OCC ). This is not an on going goal, this is a final goal after the cartel's dominance has been well established.

If each ai civ has only 1 city isn't that a little TOO unfair and unchallenging?

May I suggest playing it as a pbem with as many human players as possible( though from experience anything more then 3 players can drag a bit) and not to have the cartel stuff in it as it isn't all that feasible

I'm still keen to play a DyP pbem anyway and I know someone who might as well. I'll email him and see if he's interested.

 

[Mal_da_Despot]

Sir Eric - It might be easier to just forget the Earth Map all together and just play DyP on Pangea.

The idea behind Goal (D - Wonders) was that the AIs would probably beat us to the first couple of Wonders because we will be focusing on building out quickly. This doesn't mean however, that I was going to keep them from building them. It means those would probably be the first cities we take away from them as a Cartel.

Point (C - One City per AI) - this also was not going to be a modification on my part. Say AI #2 has built 5 cities. We as a cartel want to take 4 of those cities away from him/her to subdue them but not kill them off.

Your last point - Dropping the Cartel idea. I have to conceed that the reality of the game makes this less attractive. Why don't we scrap this thread and this idea all together, and I will start a new PBEM thread tomorrow (Sunday) for DyP. That way we don't confuse anyone with all my Charters and Goals.

Thanks for your suggestions.