The China Conundrum

[Victoria]

So, I guess it's safe to say the great wall UI is not worth bothering with in these early eras

Really to me, the only "flaw" with them is that the great wall pieces really are just bad overall

The Great Wall is pretty average yeah.

Most civs have something really bad, many may consider the Great Wall bit I quite like an early double star will give 12 gold and a whopping 12 culture later.
More to the point, it is an early fort and an archer in a fort is 25/25 which is very strong.

China is also one of the most flexible civs out there and certainly has variety in its play.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I suspect part of the problem with the 'Great Wall' is that people think Wall = Defense, and that wasn't even particularly true IRL.

In the game, as @Victoria indicated, you need you think of Great Wall tiles as Culture/Gold/Tourism tiles, not defensive tiles primarily.
Add that to the potential boost China gets to building Wonders, and what you really have is a very strong Culture Victory Civ.

In the game as in Real History, the Great Wall will not contribute much to defense or Domination: for that you'll have to invest in Units and city defenses. Of course, if you leverage China's Wonder boost into getting Terracotta Army then you can certainly go Domination even with a Chinese UU that is pretty meh and mainly defensive (Range 1 does not an offensive weapon make in this game unless it's got a major mobility boost): historically the Expansionist Chinese Armies had massed Archers (Classical Crossbowmen) and Spearmen and Chariots (Han), Heavy armored Cavalry (Knights) (Tang), or massed Musketmen (Ming).

When I won a domination game as China 'way back in Prehistorical Vanilla Era, it was by building wide (8 cities before I left the Classical Era), then building a massed army of Pikemen, Knights, and Crouching Tigers and swamping the opposition in the late Medieval - Renaissance Eras. Yes, I was Role Playing a "typical" historical Chinese Dynasty, but it worked fine with the Civ VI China as well!
- And to be honest, I don't remember building more than 2 - 3 tiles of Great Wall that whole game . . .

 

[acluewithout]

China seem pretty fly to me.

I wouldn’t complain if their UI was buffed. And I’d like they’re UU if it wasn’t their only UU (I have the same view in Korea’s, France’s, and Canada’s UU). And defensive infrastructure being more importantly generally would be great.

Otherwise. They’re really solid.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, let's take a look at this Immortal game with China. This start looks fine, but rest assured these are the only hills nearby. The lack of a reliable luxury doesn't help either. They also banned writers twice FFS.



And then there was France being too nosy... I could have attacked back but that would make it too easy. Chopped a wall.



Production was so bad that I pretty much lost every wonder that was after classic. I ended up with like 50 production in the capital; didn't help that I misplaced that IZ because I was under the mistakened impression I could build a dam. Oh it requires a floodplains.



So I think that makes a point. Even after letting the AI forward settle part of my capital, it hardly is an issue.If Mapuche wasn't so annoying with the cultural generation or I actually cared the game would have gone much faster. Oh yea, you can Great Wall in CS's.... Not that you should

Spoiler :

 

[Tech Osen]

More to the point, it is an early fort and an archer in a fort is 25/25 which is very strong.

The issue with that is that invaders get that boost too. So it's better to use them as single tile forts in chokepoints where you will put a unit on it than to actually build a lenghty wall because you're not going to put units on all those tiles. That defeats the whole wall idea.

 

[Victoria]

The issue with that is that invaders get that boost too. So it's better to use them as single tile forts in chokepoints where you will put a unit on it than to actually build a lenghty wall because you're not going to put units on all those tiles. That defeats the whole wall idea.

The wall idea is great, the change to +2 means a straight wall is as good as a star wall and takes less tiles and so done well is frighteningly good for an SV.
The fact you can have a builder with a warrior so it can attack and then get an instant +10 defence if need be is an extra bonus.

So 2 things

1. People say the opposition can also use them, well the idea is only in a desperate situation do you build a single for a fort and may not have to at all, it is unlikely the position will be of much use to the enemy so people over exaggerate this point.
2. You only build the wall when you are ready to and that is when you have your army in place so there is no real risk there.

I just feel is is underrated and not sure people have tried it in GS who are dissing it.. I am not saying build huge walls everywhere as the logistics are a pain but for 4 builder charges to give you 4 culture and 4 gold is not bad and produces lengths of wall that do match the Great Wall. At Feudalism a 6 charge builder can be 6 culture and 6 gold.

 

[steveg700]

I suspect part of the problem with the 'Great Wall' is that people think Wall = Defense, and that wasn't even particularly true IRL.

In the game, as @Victoria indicated, you need you think of Great Wall tiles as Culture/Gold/Tourism tiles, not defensive tiles primarily.

People want some defensive benefit out of a great wall for thematic reasons. The wall just being culture/gold/tourism makes it just another homogeneous UI to ham-handedly steer a civ towards a particular victory condition.

 

[Patine]

People want some defensive benefit out of a great wall for thematic reasons. The wall just being culture/gold/tourism makes it just another homogeneous UI to ham-handedly steer a civ towards a particular victory condition.

It also portrays it as it is in it's Modern viewpoint only, and completely ignores it's Ancient and Medieval usage - and the reason it was built (sorry if this has been said - I'm just guilty of responding to the last post only :S ).

 

[steveg700]

It also portrays it as it is in it's Modern viewpoint only, and completely ignores it's Ancient and Medieval usage - and the reason it was built (sorry if this has been said - I'm just guilty of responding to the last post only :S ).

Unfortunately, this likely triggers the classic response of some clever dick pointing out that the wall did not halt incursions, which incorrectly portrays a giant wall as being incapable of acting as an obstacle.

Rather, it means that a player would need to be more diligent and consistent about placing walls than the real-world analogue.

As Tech Osen alluded, a contiguous wall that must be manned at every junction is a joke in Civ VI, especially in the ancient era.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

The wall should at least cost extra movement to adjacent non-allied units.

 

[BrotherInJah]

I like China overall, but I agree that the Great Wall is pretty pointless. To repeat my suggestion from the "Civ of the Week: China" thread:

Your ideas are hard to implement.
My suggestion to make the Great Wall great again:

• Great Wall goes on its own layer on the map, not blocking the placements of other improvements or districts

  I'll skip that as it's to general

• Great Wall is visually shown to follow the edges of tiles, rather than going through the middle

  a tile has 6 edges, where it should go? To all 6, odd only..?

• Each Great Wall tile gets a flat yield of +1 gold +1 culture (at Castles) +1 tourism (at Flight)

  so great wall is tied to tile or river-like style to the edge?

• Units defending on a Great Wall tile receive a small bonus

  if this is on the edge where units will get that bonus? Infront of the wall or behind it. Or this is still a tile bonus, if so that will cause nonsense situations as graphics will show wall on the edge so it is possible that enemy will attack from same side as your unit, so having bonus tied to tile will make it super stupid to explain.

• The Great Wall acts like a river for the purposes of attacking or moving into it

  yield bonus to tile attack bonus to all tiles sharing same edge. Go back to point one.. and all the rest. It simply can't be on tile and on edge on the same time..

In fact best thing from your ideas is great wall to act like river. Yield bonus are applied to both tiles sharing the edge when wall is built. And attacking defending applies only when wall is crossed and has effect only on military units.

 

[KayAU]

Your ideas are hard to implement.

I'm well aware of that, I believe I commented on it in the original post. I don't expect my suggestions to actually be implemented, in fact, I do not expect anything significant to be done to the Great Wall implementation. These were merely my wishes.

• I'll skip that as it's to general

The point was that it shouldn't block other improvements.

• a tile has 6 edges, where it should go? To all 6, odd only..?

There would need to be some logic to determine where to draw it to make it look most visually correct. I actually don't think it would be that tricky, and not too different from how it was done in Civ 5.

• so great wall is tied to tile or river-like style to the edge?

Functionally it is tied to the tile.

• if this is on the edge where units will get that bonus? Infront of the wall or behind it. Or this is still a tile bonus, if so that will cause nonsense situations as graphics will show wall on the edge so it is possible that enemy will attack from same side as your unit, so having bonus tied to tile will make it super stupid to explain.

Yeah, it wouldn't look perfect in that case, but I don't think it is that big a deal. My idea was basically to still associate the wall and any abilities to the tile, and not the edge. Putting the visuals on the edge was just how I think it would look best, and not interfere too much with other improvements or features rendered on the tile.

• yield bonus to tile attack bonus to all tiles sharing same edge. Go back to point one.. and all the rest. It simply can't be on tile and on edge on the same time..

I never suggested that it should be. Your post seems somwhat focused on the concept of putting the wall on edges, but the "render on the edges" part of my suggestion was all about visuals.

In fact best thing from your ideas is great wall to act like river. Yield bonus are applied to both tiles sharing the edge when wall is built. And attacking defending applies only when wall is crossed and has effect only on military units.

That's mostly your idea, not mine, but it could of course be done. Features can be on edges, apparently, as rivers are a thing, but workers don't currently don't have a way of improving edges. There would need to be some extension to the UI, and I suspect more fundamental changes to the game code to make this work.

 

[BrotherInJah]

I'm well aware of that, I believe I commented on it in the original post. I don't expect my suggestions to actually be implemented, in fact, I do not expect anything significant to be done to the Great Wall implementation. These were merely my wishes.

The point was that it shouldn't block other improvements.


There would need to be some logic to determine where to draw it to make it look most visually correct. I actually don't think it would be that tricky, and not too different from how it was done in Civ 5.


Functionally it is tied to the tile.


Yeah, it wouldn't look perfect in that case, but I don't think it is that big a deal. My idea was basically to still associate the wall and any abilities to the tile, and not the edge. Putting the visuals on the edge was just how I think it would look best, and not interfere too much with other improvements or features rendered on the tile.


I never suggested that it should be. Your post seems somwhat focused on the concept of putting the wall on edges, but the "render on the edges" part of my suggestion was all about visuals.


That's mostly your idea, not mine, but it could of course be done. Features can be on edges, apparently, as rivers are a thing, but workers don't currently don't have a way of improving edges. There would need to be some extension to the UI, and I suspect more fundamental changes to the game code to make this work.

The same way workers couldn't improve adjacent tiles and now they can build tunnels, i think it will be super easy to make it possible for edges.

"Great Wall acts like a river for the purposes of attacking or moving into it" This very quote made me sure that at least in some way you suggested great wall to be a river, which is way better solution than what we have now. I'm sorry if i understood you wrongly.

 

[Karmah]

If I wanted to rework ,I'd go for something very unique like can only be build on the fourth ring of a city , culture bomb the adjacent third tiles+defensive bonus on those third tile for your units only. Providing China with something fun, unique because cities would not develop in continuity in terms of tile.

 

[BrotherInJah]

4th ring most likely will be 3rd 2nd ring of your another city.. with every new city it will mess you wall..

 

[Karmah]

4th ring most likely will be 3rd 2nd ring of your another city.. with every new city it will mess you wall..

yet if the tile isn't taken it could qualify, if you use them when they are available.

 

[Sostratus]

Production was so bad that I pretty much lost every wonder that was after classic. I ended up with like 50 production in the capital; didn't help that I misplaced that IZ because I was under the mistakened impression I could build a dam. Oh it requires a floodplains.

Why is your terrain almost totally unimproved? At least plant forests and spam some lumbermills for +3-5 if you're this far in the game.
More farms = more food = more districts faster.

This has been bugging me a for a while.

 

[Tech Osen]

If I wanted to rework ,I'd go for something very unique like can only be build on the fourth ring of a city , culture bomb the adjacent third tiles+defensive bonus on those third tile for your units only. Providing China with something fun, unique because cities would not develop in continuity in terms of tile.

The wall is an ancient improvement, cities don't reach that fourth ring for a very long time unless you dump a lot of gold into it.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

In my last game as Qin (emperor) I had a long stretch of wall providing 2f4c6gpt. I think I had 5 tiles over three cities that combined for 20 cpt and 30 gpt in addition to the food. That's a lot of culture and gold per turn. The defensive bonus doesn't matter.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Why is your terrain almost totally unimproved?

They all went to building wonders. And a Great Wall to the east.

Also is replanting forests really worth it? I usually don't research conservation for a long time and usually by then the game is more or less over so I stop caring.