The Chosen - Return to Heaven

Okay, we won't all agree on what to do. I already expressed my doubts about the Parthenon, but as you all seem to want it really bad, fine. However, I think it's a bad idea to run scientists at the same time as building the Parthenon. If we want that wonder, get it asap (seem to recall it took 8 turns instead of the 13 with scientists).
The scientists are more useful with the wonder already in place. In general, first get your multiplier in place and then start to use it. Don't try to do two things that bite each other at the same time.

Obviously the same applies to the NE. Better get it a few turns sooner as the 100% extra GPP sooner will quickly make up for not running specialists during its building phase.

Also, as I think there's no risk in losing the Parthenon in the short term, it is better to first get the NE, thereafter the Parthenon. NE is a 100% increase, Parthenon only 50%, to me it seems rather obvious NE should go first.

Aquaduct, presume it's for HG (as we don't need the health now while at the happy cap). HG was my first thought as well for the GE, however, the net effect is just the +1 health in the long term. Is that really better than 3 hammers and 6 beakers? Not a single half-tile will ever give such a benefit. :) HG does give some extra GPP however. I can go either way, tho prefer settling the GE (and postpone the aquaduct).

And please, in between all the wonders, get some units out!
 
I don't see much need for the Parthenon now either, though with marble, it's tempting. I haven't looked at the wonder list, so I don't know what wonders have allready gone (just checked, only SH has been built, so no reason at all to worry about the Parth at this point), but I agree with nocho that the NE would be a lot better for us. For both goes: build it quick, at full speed, preferably with some forests chopped into it.

I don't like the HG, period. One pop and one health vs 3hammers + 6beakers. That's easy enough for me. Please don't waste a GE on an empire wonder in a OCC.

Techpath: Don't see a reason not to finish Drama, just finish it, build a Theatre and get the GT out at our leisure. After that Monarchy > Feud > Alpha > CS.
 
(a.) Filo

Quite right on misunderstanding on Philosophical (trait) vs. Philosophy (tech') in Whosit's post.

(b.) Gunpowder bee-line with Alphabet

If we're going for lateral ideas ... how about bee-lining Gunpowder through Education ... and I can't believe I'm saying this ... and Alphabet to steal military tech's such as Horseback Riding?
  • Civil Service (Bureaucracy) > Alphabet or HBR > Paper > Education (University + Oxford Uni) > Gunpowder (Muskets)
Archers, Spears, Dog Soldiers, and Horse Archers keeping us going until Muskets. The Horse Archers taking the offence up to invaders with their flanking attack damage can take out the Catapult/Hwacha heavy stacks that should turn up at some stage or other, although with Spears/Impis on the defence the losses would probably be considerable. Stacks with War Elephants would be just about untouchable with our Horse Archers, so we'd have to wait to be attacked in our Fort rather than taking the fight to them.

We of course miss our massive tech' in Feudalism, but the Monarchy > Feudalism pathway (pre-Education) is still not cheap, and (I can't believe I'm saying this) might be picked up through theft anyway.

The big OCC scalps of Civil Service and Education are taken with this pathway, and protective Musketmen should keep us in good shape against most AI units for quite a while. It also sets us up well for Liberalism and going up the Rifling line.

We would need lots and lots of units (like two stacks of fifteen or more), especially Horse Archers, if the AI does change its rather passive stance and regularly comes at us with medium-sized stacks.
 
That's a very original idea, to say the least! :goodjob:

I like this quest for optimum play, however, I think some counter arguments could be made against this path:

- The totempoled protective longbowman is just such a good unit that I wouldn't bypass it. It's not much worse than a musket (if it is...) and it will be useful for a very long time.
- We can have feudalism within 2 sets, this gunpowder path will take quite long. CS, edu, gp itself will take a good while. Too long to my liking to depend only on horse archers and spearmen for defence.
- At some point we will need feudalism anyway. I looked it up and it's a prereq for the rifling path (going backwards rep parts > banking > guilds > feud). Ok, it could be stolen (can't believe you said that :p:lol:), but rather not wait for the AI to research it.

However, after feudalism, going to edu quickly looks good to me while backfilling through theft.
 
Oh yeah - certainly it can be countered. I guess I can see a Montezuma-type playstyle happening for a while where we just out number the invaders with Classical Age troops - esp. Horse Archers - and keep topping up with our Bureaucracy-supported capital until we get Education, and then we can start looking a quality troops. As I've said, if we don't have Iron, then we might look at building the Heroic Epic (more Great Artist points!) for really fast unit builds.

On finances, we're actually pulling in some fair commerce anyway from our BFC, so the +50%:commerce: from Bureaucracy will help there. The Academy and settled Great Scientists to follow will help make these seemingly very big tech's quite gettable. Being 'philo' we get a cheap build on the University too. After Education we can quickly get to Feudalism if this is seen to be a better move than going straight to Gunpowder, or as discuseed, we just steal it.
 
OK, I'm still going to make the case for the Parthenon, but I can bend a bit. :)

First off, nocho is quite right that for any Wonder we should be working MAX HAMMERS. We would be wasting the GPP by slowing production of either the Parthenon or the National Epic.

How about we build the National Epic first, and then the Parthenon, since you all think it will still be available. It is true: We don't NEED it, but that doesn't mean it won't be HELPFUL. A 50% bonus is still a 50%. It means that for every two Specialists, it's like we get a third free. It's like getting a third Scientist from the Great Library, plus the multipliers for all the other Wonders. I am just getting the impression that the reason no one is gung-ho about the Parthenon is because "Oh, we already can get a 100% boost from our trait and another 100% boost from the NE," which means that the Parthenon seems to be of less use relatively, but this is not the case. It will absolutely increase our GPP output, and it will continue to be effective for the period of the game in which the most Great People are likely to be generated (first half, before the GPP requirements really get crazy).

The main reason that I'm advocating that we build the Parthenon first is simply because we can lose it. We've built many of the early wonders ourselves, so I don't think we can as accurately gauge the pace of AI progress. And we have no idea what the folks on the OTHER CONTINENT are doing. They will have Barbarian problems, surely, but they may not be in full War Mode like our buddies are.

Hanging Gardens: Not a huge priority, but anything to boost our health should be given some consideration, since we won't have many options for a long while. Still, low priority.

Cottages: Let's not do this. I just don't think we'll get a significant income from them. Our economy is all about beakers, and we'll probably get more out of Representation boosted specialists than Cottages. Farms will probably be better for us, especially when we get to Biology (in the distant future). Food and Production should be our focus.

Feudalism: Probably a good idea to get, honestly. Longbowmen will keep us fairly safe for awhile. Formation LBs would be a very nice thing to have.

Forts: We will want to build forts on our far-flung resources, but we only have 3 Workers at the moment. Maybe use 1 for Fortification, dunno. Copper would be the priority.

Troops: Squeeze a couple of Spearmen out in between Wonders. We'll need them eventually. . . .

Pacifism: Bad idea. We don't have a big army now, but that is going to change (unless these AI REALLY can't handle the Barbs, but that's not usually the case). Most of my test games involve me having whole divisions at several hard-points/choke-points. We'd run ourselves broke on it, I think. Getting Taoism for the extra monastery would be cool, though.

Alphabet: What can I say? I think most of us agree that espionage is the way to go. It really is quite effective and the benefits outweigh the costs, especially with two settled Great Spies. If we somehow pop a third Spy, I'd even suggest Scotland Yard.

In closing: I'd prefer to get the Parthenon done now, since it really could fall without warning. I'm willing to Compromise and build the National Epic first, but either way, we need MAX PRODUCTION, run the Scientist(s) after the modifiers are in place.
 
In closing: I'd prefer to get the Parthenon done now, since it really could fall without warning. I'm willing to Compromise and build the National Epic first, but either way, we need MAX PRODUCTION, run the Scientist(s) after the modifiers are in place.
It's not that I think the Parthenon is useless, I like it, but I guess I'm following a list of clear priorities first, before going with other stuff. Of those initial priorities right now only the NE is left... But going Parthenon before, say, the Globe is fine with me. Look, I'm bending as well! :mischief: there's no soap around, is there? :eek:

So okay with the compromise, first NE, then Parthenon. In an ideal world where you can build both, it's obviously better to go with the NE first, it's cheaper and it has a higher benefit. With NE first the next GP will come 5 to 10 turns earlier I think. Let's see, right now 22 turns for next GP. Settle GE, NE in 6. The 16 turns left for the next GP will be halved to 8, so in 14 turns a great person. Parthenon first, takes 10 turns. 12 left for GP, but +50% output so 8 turns more. 18 turns. Okay, only 4 turns gain, but still better! And after next turn set we have another great person that we can discuss about! :p

And really, Parthenon should be in no danger, seeing the great lighthouse isn't built yet (sailing) nor ToA (polytheism) nor HG (math). Aesthetics is never high on the AI list and that won't be the case in this game either. On top of that it's no tech trading, so they'll be even slower than usual.

I agree with practically all the rest of you post by the way. :)
 
I really see only one compelling argument, and that's for settling the Great Engineer. I've had a think and LONG TERM, its production is better then a grassland hill, or +1:food: better, gives out 6:science:.

Things like Parthenon, etc, the STONEHENGE was built in 920 BC!!!!!, Distribution of Marble over these maps is only 2, 3 or 4 MAX, we have 2 in BFC.!!!!

HEALTH, your all forgetting health, and marginal cost of :hammer: production.

We Max out at Population 12, with 1:yuck: too many, that can't be over come WITHOUT a Grocer even with the Hanging Gardens.

On Parthenon, its only 50% and we'll be beelining Biology, expiring it soon. Its benefit LONG TERM, we're aiming for Ascension and Space race Victory, is worth the risk of losing it. AI's will Prioritize Statue of Zeus, then Shewagon pagoda, then Parthenon, it allway's seems to go late in +80% of my offline games.

I will settle Great Engineer, sorry I got caught up in health, but if we can't get pop, no point, and stagnate at 12 anyway till Biology virtually. Hanging Garden :health: DOESN'T EXPIRE. I'm trying for it, Fire all Scientists, still 70%, just slower.

Finish Drama, yes, because we'll go into unhappy, if we get hanging Gardens. Beeline Feudalism next, Longbows with Totem Pole -> Muskets. They have a built in 25% City Garrison, give them city Garrison 3 20%+25%+30%+25%(built in)+25% fortification bonus =125% city Defense, BEFORE wall's, hills, forest (forts) etc. Muskets, need 10 experience to gain city garrison 3, don't have 25% blah blah, but are great units, and I agree Beeline Gunpowder through Education, and Liberalism Rifling. (Cam H I agree with you :goodjob: ;) )

Now's the time to hit the wonders hard, build Archers + spears;

1) Archers - Can take out 97.5% of attacking melee troops, we'll lose 2.5%
2) Spears - Take out the Mounted troops, either Chariots, Horse Archers (which seem to kill Archers too regularly) and the WAR ELEPHANTS (Plenty up for grabs, Wang and Saladin have 1 each, 1 for Shaka to grab??)

Wonders, Aim for Hanging Gardens;

1) If it falls, we have an idea of AI's wonder pace,
2) Statue of Zeus, if it falls, well, Parthenon is in danger, and I'd advocate going for it, if able.

NO COTTAGES :vomit: heh heh, No farms are better in One City Challange see my post on Rammesses OCC GAME.

Tech path;

1) Finish Drama, we'll need the Globe Theatre eventually anyway, and if aiming for Hanging Gardens we'll need it sooner.
2) Monarchy-Feudalism, We need Quality Troops, not Quantity. 2/3 Longbows per defense point, with a spear or 2 is only 5 troops. Handle almost any stacks with totem pole promotions.
3) Long term, Civil Service (bureaucracy), Education (Oxford), Gunpowder (Muskets, and no pinch counter), Rifling from Liberalism (depends on other continent)

I choose this because HEALTH is the KEY!!!, we WON'T have access to Genetics (+3:health) or the Recycling building (late space tech?) till MUCH MUCH MUCH LATER. Biology only gives extra food for :yuck: citizens, Factory, +2:yuck:, Power +1:yuck: are going to be needed, they are offset by NON EXPIRING WONDERS of the Aqueduct and Hanging Gardens.

What other wonders gives you HEALTH. I'd rather lose a wonder (Parthenon) then lose HEALTH. No foods, rice or wheat, will fall into BFC, we can see it now, WE can't build work boat for fish, harbour. We certainly can't trade for health, beg, borrow or steal either for that matter.

I agree with arguments for National Epic, Parthenon etc, but HEALTH, HEALTH, AND DID I MENTION HEALTH are our KEY FACTORS. Great people are well GREAT.

We need HEALTH, we need defense (archers, spears, fort on copper, road to river, steal sailing)

Anyway I'm playing, we'll see if I kill us, lose us wonders, or just raise the city. :dubious:
 
Cross-post with IPEX

"No ... I'll pick up the soap ..." :eek2:

It seems that I’m the only one who is treating Alphabet as a lower-priority tech’, so maybe we halt Drama and go after Alphabet :shake:. It will be a useful gauge to seeing where at least half the AI tribes are at tech-wise (‘Can’t Trade’ list), and how comfortable we are regarding scary stuff like War Elephants and missing World Wonders. Unfortunately it seems we can’t steal Monarchy yet, as none of our nearby enemies are yet in Hereditary Rule. It pains me to see Civil Service and Education aspirations so frequently pushed aside for other technological pursuits. If we steal Monarchy and have an Academy built, Feudalism almost becomes ‘a no brainer’.

Next Build

I am not all that fussed about the National Epic vs. Temple of Artemis vs. The Parthenon vs. The Hanging Gardens dilemma. I just really want our Academy built quickly, and as nocho points out, that’s National Epic > Scientists, which is my preferred position. If this wait on the other World Wonders is too painful, then I'm OK to go for these.

Great Engineer

Settle or reserve for Oxford University. Seeing Education keeps getting pushed back, I guess settling seems at worst; ‘break even’.

For argument's sake

I’m just going to plant the seeds of my thinking for our longer term tech’ pursuits, because we just don’t have enough things already to disagree about;
  • Rifling > Astronomy > Steam Power > Medicine > Computers
 
T+0


Arcadian, looked at the city, so much was discussed in the councils of elders, some the elders had fallen asleep, others were taking their eye's off the goal off Ascension, and what would be required long term.

But not the populace, they toiled mightily in their assigned tasks. A great Mind of Engineering works had Arisen amongst the population Charles Augustine de Coulomb , his ideas and methods would be integrated into the teaching of the Library, so the future generations would benefit from his Ideas:science: and techniques:hammers:.
Spoiler :

SettleGreatEngineer.jpg

Arcadian, wondered through the streets, seeing the filth and waste, flowing through them the health of the populace was curtailed, its production limited through the illness of its workforce. Fresh water would need to be diverted to the city, and a Garden of World wonder would need to be built to produce the food for extra population.

This one Singular task, was given by the Ascended one's, who would grant the boon of 1 extra population point and 1 extra health to its citizens of the Society who built such a wonder.

Workers were given directions to chop forests, build fortifications, and roads. Much was the burden Arcadian laid upon the peoples, but great was their joy, for the new, ASCENSION was the Singular reward they worked towards.


T+1


Nothing of Earth Shattering importance happens, I see Mehmed has 2 workers in the closest city, I'd like to steal them, but no woodman 2 units.


Spoiler :
Mewantsworkers.jpg





T+2


Wang has 2 Chariots coming up from Mehmed's lands, move worker to chop forest for farm in south.


T+3


The 2 Chariots decide to give experience to our spear, 99.3%, and our Dog tries it on,


Spoiler :
Dogsaretalking.jpg



:woohoo: the Dogs are talking​



Chop some forests into Hanging Gardens after that event. :goodjob:


T+4


Aqueduct is built, Hanging Gardens is Queued next, due in 12 with 1 chop going straight into it, I thought about National Epic, due in 6, reduced to 3 with chops, but we need HEALTH


Lone spear of Mehmed sighted.


T+5


I go through the defending archers, no promotions, I give 2 city Garrison 3, and the 3rd one, 2nd first strike, and formation as Shaka has a stack of swords, chariots, imp's heading our way.

Spoiler :
Formation.jpg


T+6


Who ever pre-chopped these forests, please note; at 2 turns remaining, you need to hit Skip turn button or space bar for worker, this puts in the 1 turn to get to immediate chopping, and can move worker next turn, don't do it at one remaining, otherwise it'll just chop forest. (I've done that too, )


Spoiler :
Skipturn.jpg



Shaka, sends his stack diagonally NE advancing to our city, I move spear to Copper, just in case.


T+7


Shaka moves his stack, next to our intrepid worker, who continued work under threat of Death.

Spoiler :

Wontsplitstack.jpg



Now with 1 turn remaining, and immediate death awaiting, he


RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY!!


Moves to safety, so brave, so strong, so single minded.


Spoiler :
1turnremaining.jpg



Hanging Gardens due in 7 turns. (Oh how I love the cries of anguish and woe from my fellow team mates. build this, don't build that, how the :devil: did we allow this to happen )


The AI's seem to be making a concerted attack run now.


T+8


Shaka moves his stack to the walls of Arcadia. Never did the peoples fear, for they had their mighty army to defend them, walls, a city built on a hilltop, and 2 well trained companies City Garrison Archers, and 1 Formation trained company. The warriors, kept the streets clear for the coming battle. Arcadian's, showed no fear, death was all that awaited these attackers, and a fort was due in 5 turns upon the copper resource so valued by his troops. Cowardly troops from Wang Kon, sighted in the distance, trailing behind Shaka's attacking force, had dispersed into the fog of war. Rightly did they fear to attack Arcadia.



T+9


The troops of Shaka, having some Military knowledge, maneuvered about the city of Arcadia, awaiting the re-enforcement of another Sword unit, and seeking to obtain the high ground for an assault upon Arcadia. A Spear would take 2 turns, time Arcadia might have, as Shaka was seeking the High ground for his assault, with 2 chariots, it was needed more then a Dog Soldier.
Mused Arcadian.


T+10


Monarchy due in 1 turn, Shaka is sending a Horse Archer into the coming battle now, the spear looks to be a excellent choice, the mines were pillaged for Shaka's attack. Wang's stack of units was also sighted, to the South, seeking to come in under the cover of Shaka's attacking forces.

Spoiler :
Wangsighted.jpg



I whip the Spear for 52:hammers: overflow, to go back into the Hanging Gardens, to make up the 2 turns building the spear, 26:hammers:/turn used.


Arcadian, fearing the loss of production upon the Hanging Gardens, ordered the conscription of citizens into the company of spears being formed to combat the assault from Shaka,


Spoiler :
Whipspear.jpg


the resulting extra production from this urgency, was then put into building the Hanging Gardens wonder, for the glory of the Ascended ones.



Why I whipped, we lost the Grassland hill mine, and working a Grassland forest, we only lose l hammer over all, and a spear was needed now, not in 2 turns, more :smoke: play.



T+11


Shaka, Unbelievably, Swaps the stack off the hill, with the sword on the plains, and sends in more Horse Archers. The Spear, I consider giving woodsman 1, but with more horse archers descending upon Arcadia, I give combat 1.

Spoiler :

Stackswap.jpg



Hanging Gardens in 4 turns.


Oh yeah doubters of Arcadia, Wonders of the ages will be built, the Barbarian hordes who seek to storm your battlements will be thrown back into the pits. Great shall be your rewards for wonders built to honour the Ascended, but greater still shall be the reward of Ascension. From the writings of a forgotten poet Circa 3000 BC Arcadia.


T+12


The fort upon the Copper resource is completed, one of the roads leading from it is pillaged, one road remains.


Spoiler :
Fort.jpg



Shaka, AGAIN, swaps the stacks between the 2 area's mentioned before, Hanging Gardens due in 2 turns, losing some food. Wang continues to advance towards us. I can't get better odds then 67% for picking off Wang's or Shaka's stack, and with only 1 of each in defence of mine, we need minimum of 2, I forgo attacking.


T+13


:gripe:, we LOSE AT 1.3% to the attacker A Horse Archer V's our spear, we got in 3/9 hits in battles, 1st 4 went to the horse Archer. All other troops preformed as expected.


insert preform as expected


I up spy points on Wang for 2 turn, so we get to see his research.


Hanging Gardens is due in 1 turn, its ours, as I've said earlier, we'll lose 2.5% of Battles, that spear was one of them. I've queued another spear behind the Gardens, I won't whip, as it'll just add more unhappy. We've lost access to the Corn, a road from Arcadia to the river, needs to be built, and possibly another road from the corn to the river via the forest Hilltop. Mehmed, is now moving troops to attack us, so its build some extra defenders.

Spoiler :

Mehmed.jpg



T+14


Shaka moves back to the Grassland hill, with 2 horse archers and 1 sword, with 1 horse at 70% health, we'd have to lose 3/3 battles of +97%, and we still have 2 Warriors.

Spoiler :

Lose3outof3battles.jpg



The workers move to build a road to the river, in 2 turns, a lone chariot of Shaka's is to the South East, on his Attack vector.


UN-FREAK'N-BELIEVABLE I see we DON'T HAVE WALLS, what are we thinking. I now whip walls for 2 population, as punishment for this. Overflow to go into a spear, we were -ve growth anyway. If I'd realised that earlier, I'd have built them from a chop. Bah, Punishment for :smoke: play all round.


Spoiler :
Whipwalls.jpg



T+15


Only move I've done, is to move 3 workers out of range of Horse archers, and build a road on a civil service farm site. Wang is about to Pillage our other Grassland mine, we may need to look at defending these 2 points, as well with extra troops.


Spoiler :
HangingGardens.jpg



I stand by the decision to go for Hanging Gardens, even after the Whipping I've done. ITS ABOUT HEALTH :think: Growth will happen with Farms, production once we can guard the sites.


Strong point by Mehmed's vector of attack, between the 2 mountain peaks, could be defense against
him. Shaka and Wang, seem to be coming in on the Same Vector, string of forts by river, forcing them into a grassland to pick them off in would be great.


Now for my RANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :gripe:


I've shadowed the game from the decision point of building Oracle, I advocated, getting Feudalism from Oracle, 4/4 times I've achieved that. 50% I was able to get Confucianism as well, where I tried for it, now 4 tries isn't a valid population sample. Longbows are excellent attacking units, taking on Melee, Mounted (Elephants), and getting promoted to 40+ points for 2 of them. A woodsman 3 Dog, can pick off incoming stacks, and a woodsman 2 spear with it, can go pick off workers. ENOUGH.




View attachment 244854
 
Well, looks like you did your own thing . . . we still need the National Epic (and, hopefully, my pet project, the Parthenon). We'll also want Construction sooner rather than later, too. Catapults will be needed to deal with these stacks.

Our main objective now should be to try and push the enemy out of our territory somehow. But we can't take too big of a risk. I'd advocate training a couple of Archers, give them Guerrilla II, and send them out, hoping to goad the enemy into attacking them. Maybe we'll kill a few, and weaken others that we can pick off. We need to regain control of our BFC, rebuild what was lost (maybe train another Worker, as well), and secure our outer perimeter.

I think that we have an idea of where the enemy is coming from. We should camp some troops in that jungle to our southeast when we can. Anyway, gotta shift from Builder mode for the time being . . . .

Anyway, the city has not been lost, so I guess we can call this a successful set, IPEX. ;)
 
Thanks for the report IPEX. Bad luck on those bad battle losses.

As for the rant ... we discussed this at quite some length. There was a perceived big risk of losing The Oracle and potentially The Pyramids as well, and some the roster felt it wasn't worth the chance.

Yep - seems like we're the proud new owners of The Hanging Gardens and self-researching Feudalism.

On Construction ... I'm not sure. Seeing that we're now down this pathway, drill-promoted Longbows can stand up to a lot of punishment. Civil Service and Education is what I'd be targetting after Feudalism, although the roster seems to like Alphabet.
 
Grmph, can't say I'm overly pleased by this display of unilateralism. Not that we're in a bad position now, but I always thought the idea of SGs was to come to some kind of consensus before playing. Make your case and defend it, instead of just pushing it forward upon the rest like this. Also to me the rant seems to be completely out of place, bah. :(

Seems I'm up. Guess there's no point in telling what my plans are. (Okay, units, NE, finish feudalism. I'll lighten up later today)
 
I still say health is the one big limiting factor, if you disagree, so be it.

I said in post, I thought about National epic, with the chops, but was worried about losing Hanging Gardens and the associated health boost. I'll keep on banging on about health, GPP's can be gotten anytime, anyway, its only 1 Great person, that we'll end up missing out on, I still stand by my decision.

On pushing them out, we'll need to get an advantage to do do, just too many to try go troop for troop. Longbows can push them out, trouble is, they'll just by pass strong points, so we should be willing to snipe at them from these strong points.

Horse Archers will deal with Catapults, Longbows with most other troops, and spies will steal us back what we're missing.

1st, we need a road to river to connect the copper again.

I actually only lost 1 unit, the Spear, I was LIVID when it happened, the dog soldier won, hence dogs are talking. That was an example of what we'll have to do sniping the incoming troops, and trying to get good odds, but not enough was another.

Feudalism is REQUIRED, frankly, archers won't cut it, once they come with Elephants, catapults. Even now, against horse archers with Archers, I'm not confident, especially after that spear loss.

We do now have the vectors of attack, set up a strong point, where, we can snipe for 2 or 3 moves, and clean up once they pass it. 2 points are all that's needed, one for Mehmed and the 2nd for both Wang and Shaka.

Woods enabled troops, if we can get woods 3, that's 50% attacking into woods and withdrawal chance as well.

Oh, very important, don't forget to adjust the spy points against Wang, and put back on Mehmed for stealing. Or do we adjust for Shaka, and steal Construction, on way to Engineering. (Castle, espionage points and extra defense.)

HEALTH, is A HUGE factor in OCC's, Feudalism will safe guard us, and allow us to go on offense.

On the fort in Jungle suggested bywhosit, the Plains tile on our side of the river, would be much better, we could run a road through it to the river for the copper, it'd force the AI to divert about the fort, so we can snipe at it for 2 possibly 3 turns, and if they attack, its either across the river, or we get to snipe for 1 turn BEFORE they can, unless its just 2 move units. Chop the forest on our side of river, but leave jungle on their side.
 
I still say health is the one big limiting factor, if you disagree, so be it.
I'm afraid you completely miss the point of the complaint here.

On the point of health, well ok, I'll agree it's a limiting factor. However, if you feel that way, why did you chop two BFC forests into the HG? That's minus 1 health for the forests and plus 1 for the HG for a magnificent net result of 0 health. On top of that the extra pop from HG was inefficiently whipped away for walls. So effectively for a whole bunch of hammers and some stacked whip anger we got nothing but two measely GPP points from the HG. I think it could have been played slightly more efficiently. :mischief:

However, the criticism was not on the play itself but on the unilateral manner of deciding what to do. Of course the (imo) suboptimal outcome doesn't help in my assessment, but that is really beside the point.

But ok, I've said what I had to say and I'll let it rest from here. We'll have to get on with it, don't we. :)
 
:gripe: on the HG

I'll comment more later
 
OK, so the plan for nocho is;
  • Finish Feudalism ... big call on Civil Service vs. Alphabet vs. other interesting 'but-let's-face-it-they're-not-going-to-give-us-a-50%-boost-to-:commerce:-or-:hammers:' stuff
  • Build an Academy ... or settle a Great Artist Spy :wallbash:
  • Just generally survive this wave with the production of units, and if the enemies eventually die and give us some breathing room, then it's The Parthenon vs. National Epic vs. Theatre vs. more Longbows
... then again you can chase Philosophy and take a shot at Angkor Wat so we can start running a Priest Economy! ;)
 
OK, so the plan for nocho is;
  • Finish Feudalism ... big call on Civil Service vs. Alphabet vs. other interesting 'but-let's-face-it-they're-not-going-to-give-us-a-50%-boost-to-:commerce:-or-:hammers:' stuff
Feudalism still takes the whole set it seems, unless we get a GS for the academy :please:. I'm sorry, but after feud I'd take Alpha, however, after that I fully support your long anticipated run to CS. :king: A 50%-boost-to-:commerce:-or-:hammers:-converter is nice, but I can assure you a 100%-:espionage:-to-:science:-converter ain't bad either! :D
  • Build an Academy ... or settle a Great Artist :wallbash:
I won't finish the NE before popping a great person, so 0% chance for artist still, thankfully. GS for academy of course. GE and GPr would be settled. GSpy, I may be inclined to go more for the beakers than for the EP and thus settle as well, instead of the SY. :hmm:
  • Just generally survive this wave with the production of units, and if the enemies eventually die and give us some breathing room, then it's The Parthenon vs. National Epic vs. Theatre vs. more Longbows
... then again you can chase Philosophy and take a shot at Angkor Wat so we can start running a Priest Economy! ;)
Will try for the NE and some units. Don't think there will be much time for other infra, though may try to squeeze the theatre out.
 
@IPEX: That's just not a way to behave in a SG. Four out of five members were against it, then it is not up to you to go on and do whatever you want. If you really wanted the HG that much, you should have tried to convince us instead of this show of arrogance/ignorance. Also, chopping forests for a health wonder is pretty counterproductive, but nocho said that already. What's worse is that you didn't heed the advice to build some units in between, making it necessary to use the whip (twice, the last one with negative multipliers to boot).





Anyway. For nocho's set, I'd start with building a couple of units, (NE won't be in time for this GP). Some spears, a chariot and some DS. After that, start the NE. Try to use the workers to set up some forts (1N of Copper, the Jungle tile 2E1N of the corn is good as well). Outer forest can be chopped as well.
Tech: Feud > Alpha > CS would be my choice.

Also, we might want to consider some Drill IV archers (later LB) to cope with collateral.
 
So, after getting a night's sleep, and feeling slightly less loopy, and reading all of the comments, I have this to say:

IPEX: You have a Warning. As everyone has already said clearly, the spirit of Succession Games is to come to a team consensus (or as close as possible) in order to complete objectives. As a group, we had generally decided to get the National Epic, build a few troops, and then (probably) build the Parthenon. Nocho has already given a good analysis of what has resulted. I appreciate your input and skill, but we have to work together. Don't do this again, man.

That said, we need troops now, as is clear. Yeah, Construction probably won't be necessary if we get our Longbows. Hopefully we can rebuild our production base, get the NE, still get the Parthenon, and secure our borders.
 
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