The Civ V wish-list!!!

[ExplodingFist]

That really is an awful lot of effort, and effort on this is effort not spent on gameplay.

Such a 3D engine and the knowledge required can be bought off the shelf by making a deal with another randomly selected game company who has sold a successful shooter. It has happened before, and all the civ-people can focus on what they do best, gameplay! Of course, I would never compromize that either. Gameplay is why we love Civ.

Interesting. How are you envisioning this working?

Many ideas. For instance, hostile actions in enemy waters that has not been mapped out could be more dangerous (and sea invation might requrie mapping spy activities to increase chance of success). Mapped waters would be required for trade routes, improvements, etc. Some sea vessels could be more sensitive than others, etc. Basically, more strategic choices about how much you invest in sea activities.

(about military doctrine) This, however, seems an unhelpful level of complexity. I vote against.

No need to make it complicated at all, could be very simple. I just fleshed out some options to select from. We want something new in the military game play, right?

If it doesn't affect stratgey too much and you can't aim for it, what's the point?

Diversity and FUN. If the non-deterministic thing is bothering, scratch it. We are just brainstorming here, I hope you don't take this too serious.

In the end, as with all these ideas, Firaxis will have to decide and also balance things out. We don't even know what else they are planning that we have no idea about, and how that related to what we come up with here. Therefore presenting new fun and interesting concepts are more relevant the details I think. I fully trust Firaxis will weed out the good from the bad.

 

[rysmiel]

Many ideas. For instance, hostile actions in enemy waters that has not been mapped out could be more dangerous (and sea invation might requrie mapping spy activities to increase chance of success). Mapped waters would be required for trade routes, improvements, etc. Some sea vessels could be more sensitive than others, etc. Basically, more strategic choices about how much you invest in sea activities.

Oh, right. I was thinking more something along the lines of sea squares having different levels of "mapped" status depending on how well they had been explored, so that there was some point to sending early coastal vessesls out even when they could not reach other continents.

No need to make it complicated at all, could be very simple. I just fleshed out some options to select from. We want something new in the military game play, right?

We do ?

Some of us want to trash the unit promotion mechanics, return to pre-Civ 4 separately varying attack and defence strengths, return to Civ 2 varying firepower and hit points, scrap the rock-paper-scissors notion of unit modifiers, and are undecided about whether even Civ 3-type artillery units are a good idea; that's not wanting something new in the military gameplay, but a return to older mechanics which worked.

I think that what the military side of Civ most wants, on the whole, is to be made less important; which does of course mean making culture or religion or espionage or corporations or whatever more important/powerful/interesting.

If the non-deterministic thing is bothering, scratch it. We are just brainstorming here, I hope you don't take this too serious.

Sorry if I came across as overly negative; wasn;t meant that way.

 

[JohannesH]

Here is my contribution

1. Resources

Plant resources could be first searched for and then planted anywhere with a suitable climate.
Planted resources can be destroyed completely.

Natural resources would give increased crops (gold, bread and so on) and can’t be destroyed completely, only for example the plantation.

T.Rex has in another thread given a great list of new resources (platinum, nickel, zinc, tea…) which I hope to be applied with a greater than huge map-size.
A new green metal resource would be nice –nickel? Nickel gives better steel or ammo, I think.





2. Buildings

A
I would attach a productive building to a resource. The number of buildings would depend on the number of resources.

Example: I have planted seven dye resources – I can have seven coloured textile producing buildings in any seven of my cities. If I loose a resource, I loose the building.

The usefulness of these buildings depends on the world production – the number of these buildings.


B
I would change the factory:

A city can have two (or three) factories

A factory can work only with a related resource:
1 cotton resource 1 textile factory
1 metal (iron or copper or…) resource 1 metallic product factory
1 oil resource 1 refinery
1 wood 1 paper mill
1 iron + 1coal resource 1 steel factory
1 stone 1 concrete factory

Any of these factories can produce goods for trade (in civ IV city produces gold) or war equipment like tanks or cannons. Changing the line of production could cost turns.

Also wonder production would (automatically) change the factories to produce building materials and equipment.


3. Wonders

I love building wonders. I suggest following new ones

1. Platons academy (School of Athens) (great scientist). This was actually not a building but a park with olive trees. But academys importance for our civilization is anyway great. It would boost science in the city where it was built, by free scientists or +percentage.

2.Roman road network (great merchant or engineer).This was a great engineering effort – the roman bridges are still in use. This would decrease costs in the nearby cities but not as much as Versailles or Forbidden palace, by 30%, for example.

3.Circus Maximus (great artist). Everyone knows this. Increases happines like Globe theatre.

4.Triumf (great general). One of the Romans. Could be built in a captured city. Free military specialist / experience points for units built in this city.

5.Napoleons triumph (great general) Could be built in a captured first (like Rome or London ) capital of another nation. Works Like Versailles but again only by 30% of its power.

6.Panama canal (engineer). It was an enormous effort.

7.Ruhr factories (engineer). Doubles the number of factories (see below on buildings) in the city. This could be named “Zollwerein industrial complex “ also – belonging to Unesco world heritage

The following list is even more suggestive –

Empire state building or some other early skyscraper

Tunnel England –France

Some of the great bridges – Denmark – Sweden in Europe, for example

Sydneys opera by Utzon.

Canals and bridges of Hamburg

Unesco world heritage list was my source on the following ones motivated by countries yet without a wonder but deserving one

Other great middle age cathedrals: Aachen, Santiago de compostela, Köln

Altenmunster abbey (Germany)

Wouda steam pumps (Netherlands). This can be built in a coastal city.

Gaudis cathedral (Spanish architect Gaudi)

Engelsberg Ironworks (Sweden)


4.Techs

Logic. Early techs should include logics, with this you could build wonder no 1 above.

Mathematics could be called calculus, leading to currency just like mathematics now.

Bookkeeping – a new ancient tech, with a related new governmental building

Instead of physics I would have classical mechanics, quantum mechanics and Einsteins theory of gravity – the three greatest scientific achievements of mankind in my opinion (I am a physicist but this actually is so). These I would call key techs, and their research would take at least double the time a normal tech, with the exceptions: you have
Newton working as a super specialist -> classical mechanics in a very short time
Heisenberg working as a super specialist -> quantum mechanics in a very short time
Einstein working as a super specialist -> E:s gravitation in a very short time

Mineralogy/geology/mineral working This tech reveals secondary resources of metals. Secondary resources would not be revealed by techs like iron working –only primary ones. This would in effect mean new resources of iron, copper, and so on.

Spinning frame. A technology behind cotton mills of Manchester. With this technology a factory can produce textiles.

Inorganic chemistry. Paper production from wood is based on knowledge of acids and bases. With this technology a factory can use wood resources.

Botany – reveals new plant resources like coffee, cocoa

Other techs that open a resource for factories.



5. Overseas trade

Goods from overseas need a trade route and vessels carrying these goods. These new ship units would sail from port to port and could be captured or destroyed.

Portugal and Netherlands could have their special unit as these trade ships.

6. Leader characteristics

Great project leader (I don’t know a one word synonym for this).
+50% wonder production
Industrious
+ forge +20% and factory +5% production
Analytic
+ gives one advise/turn to the player if he asks for it. Concerning needed buildings, risks for security, …
+ or has like 50% possibility of knowing the rival civs planned action against you.
+ or some wonders have increased impact for your civilization
Great tradesman
+overseas trade and corporations work better for you


7. Map size

Huge is too small – double would be nice.

 

[Balderstrom]

I'm not quite sure I'm following your mechanic here, but any random aspect to research at all really should be optional; so much strategy in any version of Civ depends on picking your research path for your sesired short and medium-term goals. I'm aware there are people who like the option of blind research, and I'd be happy to see that as an option, but not as a default.

There is no blind research. And the only randomness I was referring to at all - was that if you hold out on something like Developing Trains until you have more than the minimum prerequisite, a given chance for better Trains.
With perhaps small chances at any development for 'better than default'. When you destroy a civ, you would assimilate their more advanced/better developments.
Also the possibility to trade these advances with other CIVs.

A little bit of randomness wouldn't hurt the game at all. The underlying mechanics are a tad too mathematically rigid.
You don't get unexpected GP's, you sit and wait. You don't get unexpected City growth, or culture border growth - or shrinkage.
The random events implemented in BTS are pretty damned bland.
Instead of Plagues that wipe out population. Boons that boost pop. Diseases that wipe out crops for x-turns. Bumper years that produce more food for x-turns.

 

[Balderstrom]

I take it you don't have BTS, Industrious is a leader trait already - with +50% Wonder, +100% Forge.

Planted resources could very well work, perhaps requiring no other natural Plant resources within a 9square radius. Have the planted resource expire after a period of time and not be able to re-plant that square for a cooling-down (refertilization) period.

I think Brass Working tech, instead of necessarily yet another metal resource would make more sense. Obviously the game can't represent every single resource. Silver already is next to useless aside from the happy pt.
Nickel/Tin/Zinc/etc can just be assumed; add a few more Optional techs that have resource & tech req's to research. The path's don't necessarily need to lead in/out, something like how "Divine Right" is represented.

Tech's that allow you to process resources into other materials - a precursor to the Modern age Corporations.

 

[JohannesH]

I take it you don't have BTS, Industrious is a leader trait already - with +50% Wonder, +100% Forge.

Thanks for commenting my post

I would like in a way to split the old industrious characteristic to
1. project leader -> +50%wonder (possibly faster production of forge)
2. new industrious -> more effective forge, factory (not faster production)

Maybe not a revolutionary idea (I would like to here opinions on buildings connected to resources in my previous post), but increases the number of possible new leaders.

I developed further two ideas in my previous post:

1. Overseas trade an the importance of navy

Goods from overseas need a trade route and vessels carrying these goods. These new ship units would sail from port to port and could be captured (probab x) or destroyed (probab 1-x). If a vessel with cargo is captured you will loose gold to the capturer. If the vessel gets to its goal port, you will get gold.

Portugal and Netherlands could have their special unit as these trade ships.

A new national wonder - The Main Harbor

Can be built after building seven harbors
An incoming trade vessel to Main Harbor with cargo gives +1 happines for the next turn. This is not cumulative.

This idea needs working, but the goal is to make the sea more interesting


2. Panama canal world wonder
A new river connection from the city the Panama canal is completed to another coastal city chosen by the player.


The river tiles in these two cities +3hammer, +3gold

OR river tiles +1 gold, +1 hammer along the river (this advantage may be too big)

 

[Dero Zero]

w00t! this is the post number 387!!!!!!!

 

[Balderstrom]

In my post where I discuss claiming a Tile. I have an addenum, inspired by the previous post where it is recommended to make Explorers useful.

Scouts: can claim a plot within Cultural Borders & Neutral Territory.
Explorers: can additionally claim a plot in another CIVs Territory.
- The Tile cannot be currently worked by the CIV (within a Fat Cross)

Explorers can ignore Closed border agreements without incurring the -1 Diplomatic penalties. They can still be killed when exploring across closed borders.

Claiming a Tile fortifies the unit(Scout/Explorer).
If the unit leaves the tile (or is killed) then the claim is destroyed.
A destroyed claim reverts back to its

A CIV may have 1 claim per Size 6 City.

NOTE Claimed tiles are worked by a "Worker/Gatherer" Unit, a new specialist that creates a physical unit when (+) added.

 

[Dero Zero]

w00t! this is the post number 387!!!!!!!

Why did I say that?

Don't know.

But...

THIS IS MY 78th POST IN CIVFANATICS!!! w00t!

 

[Balderstrom]

@ JohannesH, Generally I try and keep my ideas within the spirit of CIV (the reason why I haven't posted my expanded-grid TurnBased combat idea).

If we bring the "spirit of CIV" to your resource production Factories...
1) Allow a Factory to produce Goods from a related resource.
2) The amount of goods produced related to 50% of the City's T hammer output.
3) When a Factory is used to produce goods, the City loses the 50% T bonus.
Allow a City to have multiple factories. When not actively producing goods, the additional factories provide no benefit, but do add more Unhealthiness.
(IE no additional +50% Production from multiple factories).

Factories produce goods based on what resource(s) are "fed" to them. You need NOT build specific factories.

To have this idea work at all, the various ideas floating about regarding how much "resource" a Resource provides would need to be honed.

ATM I'm not completely convinced breaking resources down into variable amounts is a good idea. It attempts to place too much realism CIV, which is more SIM-like and less of a game.

While I do agree it doesn't necessarily make sense one resource can provide for huge CIV's - it doesn't really need to "make sense". The added complexity of Resource X provides Y amount, is just that: added complexity with little gain.

If we bring the CIV feel/design to produced goods, instead of partial points/amounts of goods I see:
1) A Factory can research a Product, Produce a Product OR provide its +%% bonus.
2) A Factory can stop production(or research) and provide its +%% that turn.
3) X amount of is needed to Research a Product (Tool the Factory).
4) Once researched/tooled, that Factory will provide that Product/Good every turn, until re-tooled.
5) A Factory can only be Tooled(Know/Produce) one Good at a time.

Re-tooled = Completes researching another Product/Good.

Possibly give a Factory a research bonus if it is going back to a Good it previously researched & produced.

 

[ExplodingFist]

I was thinking more something along the lines of sea squares having different levels of "mapped" status depending on how well they had been explored, so that there was some point to sending early coastal vessesls out even when they could not reach other continents.

Yeah you got it, that's exactly what I meant. It could add more depth to naval strategy. Seems we understand eachother.

 

[Balderstrom]

Explored Ocean Tiles -

It would be nice to be able to produce a Buoy-Ship - which can travel up to X squares into the ocean and lay down(turn into) a fixed Buoy.

* Buoys clear Fog of War and provide exploration of tiles.
* Buoys improve Sea Trade Routes.
* Enemy ships approaching a Buoy would give a warning:
The Romans have entered your waters near <CITY_X>
* The Buoy-Ship cannot place a buoy within sight of another Buoy.
NB: The Buoy has a greater Field-of-View than the Buoy Ship.

Limit how far into the ocean Buoys can be placed?
* whether or not a Buoys can stack further and further out.

 

[rysmiel]

There is no blind research.

I know there's none in Civ; there was in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, and somewhere around here are some people who used to play that game saying it would be a cool option in future versions of Civ.

A little bit of randomness wouldn't hurt the game at all. The underlying mechanics are a tad too mathematically rigid.
You don't get unexpected GP's, you sit and wait. You don't get unexpected City growth, or culture border growth - or shrinkage.

Some of us see this as a feature rather than a bug.

The random events implemented in BTS are pretty damned bland.
Instead of Plagues that wipe out population. Boons that boost pop. Diseases that wipe out crops for x-turns. Bumper years that produce more food for x-turns.

You really think it would add to the fun of a game if you could have ages of effort wiped out, or alternately get big enough a boost that a skilled player could turn it into a game-winning advantage, completely at random ?

 

[rysmiel]

To have this idea work at all, the various ideas floating about regarding how much "resource" a Resource provides would need to be honed.

ATM I'm not completely convinced breaking resources down into variable amounts is a good idea. It attempts to place too much realism CIV, which is more SIM-like and less of a game.

While I do agree it doesn't necessarily make sense one resource can provide for huge CIV's - it doesn't really need to "make sense". The added complexity of Resource X provides Y amount, is just that: added complexity with little gain.

Oh, I think there's a lot to gain from it.

For example (and I am making up all the numbers here off the top of my head for the sake of an example; whatever balancing has to be done to make it work out right would probably change those a lot).

For one thing, you can have unit cost vary in more than one dimension. A legionary could cost 40 shields altogether, but need 10 shields of iron; a chariot could also cost 40 shields but only need 5 shields of iron.

For another, it goes well with changes in resource availability over time. You get Iron Working, you can see your initial iron mines with, say, 40-100 shields of iron each. When you get Gunpowder, or some other tech allowing more advanced mining, some of those mines become workable for an extra 200-1000 shields of iron, and when you get Robotics, some fraction of those become available for another 500-3000 shields of iron.

Then you could trade in a number of ways. You could trade a fixed number of shields' worth of iron, so that, for example, if Montezuma has no other source of iron and you give him 20 shields' worth, the most he's going to be able to make with that is two legionaries or four chariots. You might want to check, if Bismarck comes looking for thirty shields of iron from you, that he's not thirty shields of iron short from finishing the Eiffel Tower. Or you could trade access to exhausted mines, if you need cash straight away, and gamble on whether the mine in question will turn out to be any use when you get more advanced techs or not.

 

[Balderstrom]

Losing a POP or access to a resource for a few turns is hardly wiping out ages of effort.

And all you've done is re-explain a proposed game-mechanic, that has already been explained. The proposal over-complicates resources for no gain whatsoever. It adds another level of management that doesn't already exist.
Threads like these would benefit far more from discussing probable avenues the dev's might go. Instead of places we know they wont. Devs have absolutely no interest in turning off possible new players/buyers. When given a choice between complex and streamlined - streamlined will almost always win.

In every single post you make in almost every thread is a call for excessive amounts of detail or convolutedness. To the point where any non-hardcore player wouldn't even dare try to understand the game. When players can't understand the game, they don't play. And when a player can't understand the game, its next to impossible to code an AI to.

I think I shall depart back to the threads that are a little more rooted in reality.

 

[Rub'Rum]

Some of us see this as a feature rather than a bug.

He didn't say it was a bug. I agree that the game needs a bit more randomness. I said it somewhere else, too many numbers, too many details... it's just not the "I'm the head of a civilization" feel anymore when I can decide when so many things happen and use some weird calculations at all time to maximize minute details. Bahhhhh, that again...

I also agree with the post just above mine. A lot.

 

[sangeli]

1. (A) Very simple, limit the number of units per square to about 8, depending on the mod. This is to prevent giant stacks from just steamrolling everyone because in real life you just can't fit that many divisions in one place. This only needs to apply if you can, like in Dales combat mod, attack and defend with multiple units.

1. (B) Directional fortificaton (most important for me and for many war mongerers) So far I have yet to see anyone implement or even suggest this but it has sooo much potential value and I'm sure some of the better modders can make it. Basically it's just choosing a direction to fortify in, per se, a 50% defense bonus in that directon . However, attacks on the side (i.e. flanking) gets a good bonus. This is to make lines of defense (i.e. the maginot line) have some value, even if it is not alot (and yes I know the maginot line failed). To me, merely fortifying cities with troops is stupid and unrealistic because in conventional wars, most battles are fought outside cities, and with the current design of Civ 4 almost none are. Also, for units that just used up all the movement points, they can pick the direction they're facing for no bonus but attacks on the flacks are devastating, as they are in real life. To protect flanks, they're should also be a "protect flanks" forification wherein you get a 25% bonus when enmies attack from one side or the opposite side. Note: the flank is always determined by which way the other units are facing so, for example, if your units are facing left guarding the flanks protects units coming due north or due south.

1 C. Wartime movement restriction During war (and only when another countries unit is actually on your territory) motorized units move just as fast on your roads as they do in enemy territory. In real life, you don't move significantly slower in enemy territory. Also, Railroads shouldn't count for motorized units because why does moving a tank on a railroad make it go faster? This facilitates Blitzkrieg because making an initial breakthrough actually means something as enemies struggle to catch up once they are passed. During peacetime normal movement should apply just convenience. One thing I've considered is that during war each turn length is much shorter. The effect of that is units go slower, non-military buildings build slower, culture is slower, but military units and research are the same. This is 1. to make the timeframe of war more realistic (i.e. wars shouldn't last 400 years like they do now) as well as conduct and 2. Scientific advancement is always much faster during war. However, I fear it is not feasible and makes the game too complecated.

2. Military Control During war, once your unit occupies a plot of land it is yours until the other countries unit reoccupies it, even if your unit has moved because in real life a division leaves a small amount of troops in areas it conquered to control the population, small enough so that it doesn't affect the force of the original division or pose a threat to an enemy division. This way you can set up supply lines and can cut off enemy supply lines.

3. Supply lines Combined with 2 it can make supply lines a very important concept in the game. All units have a supply line that connects them to their home country. However, if the unit is surounded by enemy territory, which normally wouldn't happen with suggestion 2 in place, the lne is cut off. Each unit would have a supply of amunition and mechanical units have a supply of gasoline. The use of ammunition is determined by how much the unit fights and gasoline consumption is determned by movement.

4. Realistic Resources I think people have mods like this where the amount of resources you have is not just you have it or you don't. Additionally, I think units and buildings should take up amounts of the resource, for example making one tank takes up one point or so of steel. The idea of food should dissapear and instead it should be different levels of corn, wheat, etc (except for supplying units and then food is just the cumulitive of everything). Also, techs should let you make certain types of farms or pastures depending on the the latitude (for example you can't grow banannas in Canada). To me it seems completely ridiculous that in the modern age you cant pick where you grow your corn. Lastly, you should be able to trade different amounts of all resources to other nations.

5. Cities and Work points Starting with a certain tech, people stop living off of the land (i.e. you don't pick tiles for people to work on. Instead, you just have a few professions: farmer (make food points) worker (work points) doctor (health). The number of each profession you can have in a city is based on certain things, for example the number of workers you can have is based upon how many factories you have.

6. Fortifications and Military Bases There should be new fortifications like pillboxes or other things that give units fortified more bonuses. Permanant artillery should also be available. Also, there should be an option to make something called a military base that requires takes a very long time for workers to make. It can hold aircraft and can be named, and function much like cities except there is no population, it cant make things, and has no cultural influence. You name them and you can also trade them in diplomacy. I think someone already has done this but I'm not sure.

7. Specialized Units Basically I'm tired of one unit dominating the game because there is no adequate counter. Instead I propose eliminating all specialized types of infantry (marines, paratroopers, etc) for just one you make. Once you make an infantry unit, you get to pick its "specialty", which is just a big promotion, not the uber horsehockey one you get now. For example, you can make an infantry an anti-tank infantry by a promotion that makes it 50% better against tanks. You can also have promotions to make it a paratrooper, marine, etc. However, each unit can only choose from ONE of the specializations. This eliminates the need to have a bunch of different infantry and still have flexibility.

8. Artillery I think the whole idea of artillery needs to be reworked. First, give it a real sentry move that attacks anything that moves in it range, or is trying to move in its range. For example, if you have line of defense and you have artillery in the square behind, units that attack the line automatically get hit by artillery. This makes artillery a weapon not just for offense.

9. Dales combat mod is a great foundation to build upon and he made greats strides in making military combant more realistic.


The combination of all these modifications would make mods sooo great and realistic. Blitzkrieg, my favorite type and best type of warfare, actually can be implemented, while still allowing defense to work well.

 

[sangeli]

Also, to all those people fearing that Civ becomes to complex to play with all these new ideas, we can still have a noob version that is very boring with no cool features.

 

[rysmiel]

Devs have absolutely no interest in turning off possible new players/buyers. When given a choice between complex and streamlined - streamlined will almost always win.

This would be why they included such pointless additional levels of complexity as civics, unit promotions and rock-paper-scissors combat in Civ IV, then ?

In every single post you make in almost every thread is a call for excessive amounts of detail or convolutedness. To the point where any non-hardcore player wouldn't even dare try to understand the game.

First off, look again at where I say "optional". Very few of these additional levels of complexity are things I'm proposing as default, and there are definitely fewer of those than there are levels of complexity I am proposing removing from Civ, like the three mentioned above. I want a game where people who want simple can have simple, and I can have complex.

Secondly, for people whose hearts are set on even simpler gameplay, there is Civ Revolutions.

 

[sangeli]

This would be why they included such pointless additional levels of complexity as civics, unit promotions and rock-paper-scissors combat in Civ IV, then ?



First off, look again at where I say "optional". Very few of these additional levels of complexity are things I'm proposing as default, and there are definitely fewer of those than there are levels of complexity I am proposing removing from Civ, like the three mentioned above. I want a game where people who want simple can have simple, and I can have complex.

Secondly, for people whose hearts are set on even simpler gameplay, there is Civ Revolutions.

I completely agree with you but I feel that we are fighting on the losing team...alas