The Current State of Forward-Settling & Early Aggression

[steveg700]

I got in just a couple of hours to play last night. Playing as Netherlands, with Germany not too close but not too far away.

He was quite unabashed about attacking a neighboring CS (in keeping with his shtick, I suppose), and with settling down my throat. This combination of conquest and settling well enough that I doubt loyalty pressure would ever tilt against him. He then aggressively poached away tiles that were in contention between us. And all the while, he's smiling and laying the ground for friendship. What a bastard!

I was going to ask him to not settle cities on top of me, but it now requires diplomatic favor to issue such a request. And in the absence of such a promise, there's no grievance for settling too close. He did earn a pair of 50 grievances for attacking the CS, with whom I had envoys. However, the act of denouncing and declaring a formal war eclipses that, making me the jerk. This is in the ancient and classical eras.

So, I'm pondering whether there are issues that should be addressed. For instance, if I am the suzerain of a CS, I basically have to delcare a surprise war to defend it from aggression (probably can't wait five turns). Again though, it seems the grievances I earn eclipses the aggressor's.

As I said, these are only based on a couple hours of play, so some have more empirical evidence to go off of...?

 

[criZp]

Early in the game grievances go away quickly, so they don't matter so much. Just give him the stick.

 

[steveg700]

Early in the game grievances go away quickly, so they don't matter so much. Just give him the stick.

That was the plan....But he beat me to xbows!

He did make the dumb mistake of moving a unit into a city that was about to go under, but he's done all right, even if by accident. He even moved a warrior betwixt my swordsman and his xbow.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Early diplomacy doesn't exist.

But this is fine though. Even back in Civ 4, I generally saw killing off neighbors as necessary before I could "settle" down. Otherwise you have no space.

 

[ExemplarVoss]

Yeah, early game grievances evaporate like water. I destroyed two civs (one was defensive war in response to first) and the only people who have any grievances at all are the ottomans, because I just took 2/3rds of their stuff in a defensive war. And even that is bleeding off quickly.

Surprise war declaration in early game is gone in 17 turns (150, -9 per turn)

 

[steveg700]

Early diplomacy doesn't exist.

But this is fine though. Even back in Civ 4, I generally saw killing off neighbors as necessary before I could "settle" down. Otherwise you have no space.

Well, I'd prefer a bit more space, personally. But the maps are what they are.

Or, some effective checks on expansion so that civ's aren't just spamming them out by the bushel. Give lack of amenities an actual sting.

 

[Archon_Wing]

The spawns seem less bad. But I haven't played enough.

Or, some effective checks on expansion so that civ's aren't just spamming them out by the bushel. Give lack of amenities an actual sting.

Impossible since the AI starts with 2 settler on Emperor and 3 on deity plus their massive bonuses. They just take up so much space by default

 

[steveg700]

Impossible since the AI starts with 2 settler on Emperor and 3 on deity plus their massive bonuses. They just take up so much space by default

Two or three is not what I'm talking about.

 

[steveg700]

Yeah, early game grievances evaporate like water. I destroyed two civs (one was defensive war in response to first) and the only people who have any grievances at all are the ottomans, because I just took 2/3rds of their stuff in a defensive war. And even that is bleeding off quickly.

Surprise war declaration in early game is gone in 17 turns (150, -9 per turn)

Well, it seems that an AI civ attacking a CS I'm suzerain of doesn't generate any grievances beyond attacking any other CS.

I attack a CS only I have envoys in, that's 50 grievances.

Moari attack a CS after I become its suzerain, that's 50 grievances.

And the AI still doesn't care if you're friends with it. It will attack my suzerained CS's relentlessly, and there are no promises, trade options, or other diplomatic recourse to bring an end this. Surprise war is still it.