The Dragon

Spearmen in the Modern Era = Vatican guards in the real world. They should be useless for anything but ceremonial duty unless properly upgraded - at the very least with heavy MODERN promotions. However, ceremonial or not they are STILL getting paid and any debate about where this expense should be placed in the budget is totally besides the point.

I am sorry that you can't comprehend why it is illogical that a Speaman(ie.) from a backwards and techonologically inferior civilization is JUST as effective/ineffective at defending against a Tank(ie.) as a Spearman(ie.) from technoloigcally superior civilization .... UNLESS we accept the fact that a Spearman(ie.) is JUST a Spearman(ie.) and NOTHING else.
 
Spearmen in the Modern Era = Vatican guards in the real world. They should be useless for anything but ceremonial duty unless properly upgraded - at the very least with heavy MODERN promotions. However, ceremonial or not they are STILL getting paid and any debate about where this expense should be placed in the budget is totally besides the point.

I am sorry that you can't comprehend why it is illogical that a Speaman(ie.) from a backwards and techonologically inferior civilization is JUST as effective/ineffective at defending against a Tank(ie.) as a Spearman(ie.) from technoloigcally superior civilization .... UNLESS we accept the fact that a Spearman(ie.) is JUST a Spearman(ie.) and NOTHING else.

I'd also note that part of the unit maintenance cost would be feeding and supplying said troops. There are more costs to fielding an army than just paying them after all and many of those costs still apply in garrison. It's called logistics and every military has a dedicated arm just for that purpose. Also, for he who thinks military units get paid significantly more than Vatican Guards/police, you are very wrong my friend. Police officers make more at entry level than many soldiers with years of experience. My friend just joined a local department and he is making significantly more now at entry level than when I got out of the military after 5 years of service.

I also believe that no matter how you cut it, a spearmen is just a spearmen with no extras. That's exactly what upgrading the unit represents. Until the game has a mechanic to have units automatically upgrade themselves based on your available technologies, we are stuck with having to pay for each upgrade, which represents purchasing weapons and equipment and supplying them to that unit only. If you can't afford to upgrade your other units, then they still have what they always had and I simply refuse to assume they happened to get better equipment just because another unit has it. For the record, the United States is constantly upgrading it's military, and it takes quite a long time for the newest equipment to reach it's troops stationed overseas in Germany for example. In fact, I trained on weapons that my unit in Germany didn't receive until shortly before I was discharged from active duty. That took years my friend. Your theory that because those weapons exist and are available to a nation so all of their units should have them simply doesn't hold water in real life nor in game terms where this is represented by upgrading the units.

I'd also like to ask how many of you served in armor units in any military branch and worked with tanks? I have, for several years, and not just tanks but other armored vehicles as well. I'm very familiar with their strengths and weaknesses, and I'd even challenge you to gather up all your buddies and show up at a local national guard unit and demonstrate how you and your spears could defeat a tank crew. At worst, you'd probably have a fun day and get an education.

There really is no way short of digging a GIANT hole in the ground and hoping that vehicle drives into it for any primitive people/unit to defeat one of these things. Beyond that it's simply not possible. I refuse to accept that they are using modern tools/weaponry in game terms because that's what upgrading represents.

You can't get into one when they lock you out. You can't starve them out when they have rations inside unless the tank is incapable of moving. Blankets will only slow them down. You're also assuming someone could get on the tank in the first place to place said blankets over ALL the places you can see out of one, which though possible, isn't likely for primitive people who do not have tanks themselves and don't understand how they work. You're also assuming said people got on the tank unnoticed, and that the gunner didn't swivel the turret, which is standard procedure in the occurence that someone got on it. You're also assuming the driver didn't run them down, the gunner didn't blast them with the big gun and machine guns, and the tank commander didn't use their machine gun.

Like I said, the only feasible way for a primitive people to defeat one is to dig a GIANT hole with no slopes so the tank couldn't get out. Even then, this example accounts for only one tank and not the tank unit which is intended to be represented. This implies advanced warning also. How many bronze age peoples would know of an impending invasion by a modern nation with enough advance warning to prepare such defenses. Those holes won't dig themselves after all.

So, sure, it's feasible ONE single tank could be disabled by primitive peoples IF they thought to dig this hole, or managed to get the tanks to drive somewhere detrimental. Collapsing a bridge comes to mind, but I don't know of any primitive peoples with the technology to take down a bridge capable of supporting a 60 ton vehicle. I'd even venture to say they might get a few if they were obscenely lucky, but defeating an entire tank unit is simply an impossiblity.

More on topic, I really don't think that dragon is meant to be killed. I agree with the person who said it's meant to be incentive for you to hurry up and get to Mulcarn. If you can kill it, great. If not, you better find his boss. :P
 
Well, this is obviously getting us nowhere.

I'm going to stick with a 'spearman' in a modern army being a third rate unit NOT armed with spears but with a few obsolete arms, recoiless rifles, mines, and other second tier weapons, since I feel this is the only logical expenditure a country buying a military would make. There are lots of militia type troops like these in many real armies and they seem to me to cost roughly what third tier units do indeed cost in the game. There are no spearmen in modern armies, so I'm going to continue to look at a spearman unti in Civ for my modern army as a third rate unit with poor arms and training.

I also don't think that the spearman unit in a modern army represents the Vatican guards because this also isn't logical to me that an army preparing for war would outfit a unit like the Vatican guards. It looks like the Vatican Guards number 134 people (this may not be 100% up to date but I'm sure it is around this amount) and DO have rifles and are proud of their marksmenship. So I don't think that the spearmen and the axemen representing about 5% of my military strength in the 1940's are these units either. They make up probably 10's of thousands of troops. I also suspect that since the Vatican Guards practice marksmenship maybe they would also carry mines and grenades in times of real war?

Firaxis appears to agree with me, since the units in the game do indeed cost and have the combat effectiveness of militia type units, not untis armed with spears.

I'm sorry you hate me over this. I think the the game is right, you think its wrong. Fine, I'm not going to convince you, you aren't going to convince me. I'm going to continue to say that they game handling is logical and well designed and that Firaxis shouldn't change it. You can argue the opposite.

If you think I'm stupid, as you pretty much said said in your last post, that is also you're right. I obviously don't think I am.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
Well, this is obviously getting us nowhere.

I'm going to stick with a 'spearman' in a modern army being a third rate unit NOT armed with spears but with a few obsolete arms, recoiless rifles, mines, and other second tier weapons, since I feel this is the only logical expenditure a country buying a military would make. There are lots of militia type troops like these in many real armies and they seem to me to cost roughly what third tier units do indeed cost in the game. There are no spearmen in modern armies, so I'm going to continue to look at a spearman unti in Civ for my modern army as a third rate unit with poor arms and training.

I also don't think that the spearman unit in a modern army represents the Vatican guards because this also isn't logical to me that an army preparing for war would outfit a unit like the Vatican guards. It looks like the Vatican Guards number 134 people (this may not be 100% up to date but I'm sure it is around this amount) and DO have rifles and are proud of their marksmenship. So I don't think that the spearmen and the axemen representing about 5% of my military strength in the 1940's are these units either. They make up probably 10's of thousands of troops. I also suspect that since the Vatican Guards practice marksmenship maybe they would also carry mines and grenades in times of real war?

Firaxis appears to agree with me, since the units in the game do indeed cost and have the combat effectiveness of militia type units, not untis armed with spears.

I'm sorry you hate me over this. I think the the game is right, you think its wrong. Fine, I'm not going to convince you, you aren't going to convince me. I'm going to continue to say that they game handling is logical and well designed and that Firaxis shouldn't change it. You can argue the opposite.

If you think I'm stupid, as you pretty much said said in your last post, that is also you're right. I obviously don't think I am.

Best wishes,

Breunor

You're right about the Vatican Guards not being a good example of a spearman unit because in fact, all ceremonial units in my experience do have armories with modern equipment and as they are still soldiers could be called to war so they have to maintain a certain level of preparedness.

In my examples, I refer only to technologically primitive peoples like some of the tribes we still have today in the world. Those to me, are the only true spearmen left in the world.

In game terms, I'd say that a technologically modern civ who still has spearmen is simply poor and has yet to afford the things that unit needed, or failed to disband it in favor of training a new unit. In reality disbanding units happens all the time, and it's only in games like Civilization where people cling desperately to those outdated units. Yes, I'm guilty as charged... :P

It appears that much of this debate revolves around what actually constitutes a spearman unit, and in this case many of us will simply have to agree to disagree. I suppose it can be whatever you want it to be in your own game, and there's nothing wrong with that. We should all remember it's a game we are talking about after all and we are entitled to our own imaginings in our own little worlds. :)
 
I don't have a problem with assuming a unit gains automatic upgrades as the owner progress in technology, but I do have a problem if that unit at the end of the day is no stronger/different than the same unit of a technologically backwards civilization.

The only way to represent this difference is to have the units of the technologically superior civilization upgrade in name, appearance and strength (regular way or automatically) to effectively become a different unit - assumptions alone just doesn't cut it to achieve Suspension of Disbelief.
 
I'm sorry you hate me over this.
I never said that - I don't hate you.

What I did say was that I hated the argument ...
/rant on
... because it is based on assumptions that represents a fundamental lack of understanding about the way things work in the real world. And some people cling to it religiously, brushing aside/ignoring any logical arguments and examples - or even worse fabricate unrealistic and/or irrelevant setups/references in an attempt to 'prove' the flawed argument correct.
/rant off

The argument is simply pure nonsense and nothing in this (or previous) debate(s) has convinced me otherwise.
 
What if the crew locks the hatches so they can't get them, as spears are useless against the heavy armour?
They have holes in the armor =)
(low str means damage)
So the spearmen could pick them like fish from a can and eat raw meat =).
 
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