The Endless Power of China

[Scaphism]

I'd like to do a different experiment with world builder. What would be good variables?

-Equal Hammers of Mace & Trebs vs. Chuks
-A city with 60%? Defense (No hill?)
-Half as many hammers worth of Longbows (maybe more?)
-Drill 3 Chuks, Combat 1 CR2 Maces & Barrage + Accuracy Trebs

List any more if needed

Taking a lightly defended city isn't a big deal - one stack is as good as another for easy targets.

I'd make it a city with 60% cultural defense, walled, on a hill, that can produce another longbow every 2-3 turns.

The real advantage of cho-ku-nus is that you get them before Maces and Trebuchets.

A "more realistic" test would have the maces and trebs facing a slightly more advanced and better garrisoned city.

A decent sized stack for the era would have around 10 attackers minimum, with 4 accuracy promoted catapaults. Ideally they are not attacking at all - they're there to remove city defenses. Trebuchets get city raider promotions, not barrage.

The point of the test (I assume) is to take a highly defended, strategically important city and be able to continue the campaign. It's not to simply take out one city.

You're likely to face 5 or 6 longbows and maybe a few axes/swords or regular archers. If they have catapaults of their own, the drill-promoted Cho-ku-nus are at at further advantage since they are resistant to collateral damage.

Entering borders at a 60% defense city means crossing at least two tiles, maybe 3. That means expect at least one more whipped unit and maybe reinforcements coming via the roads. So make it 6-7 longbows, with another coming in 2 turns if the city isn't taken.

I don't think the test would have to be done 20 times - 3 or 4 times would be enough to give a good indication of which stack preserves more hammers.

 

[ICNP]

Okay Relisting Variables

DEFENDING CITY
-Hilled, Walled, 60% Culture Defence
-7 Longbows for Chuks and 10 for Maces
-Longbows have CG2

Chuks
-Approximately 10 Chuks
-CG1 and Drill 3

Maces/Trebs
-7 Maces
-2 Trebs
-Both have CR 2

Anyone else want to make a change?

 

[pigswill]

Presumably have hammer equivalents for CKNs and maces/trebs; therefore they should face the same number of LB defenders. In terms of promotions you could try protective CKNs (CG1, Drill 3), vs Agg Mace/Treb (C1,CR2/CR/Acc) vs protective LBs (CG3, drill 1).

 

[Bureaucracy]

Reading the comments on how over-powered Cho-ko-nos are has me laughing.

At one time the forum was full of how over powered the Pratorians were, then the next month it was how over-powered red coats were. Every month it's something else, isn't it? At least we finally got out of the phase now about how over-powered catapults were. But now we are back to chinese crossbowmen again it seems.

Just last month, the BTS forum had a gigantic thread on how airships were the most over-powered unit in the game, and how it was crippling Civ IV, and needed to be removed or have a superior counter unit to prevent it from breaking the game. And before that, it was bombers, and then stealth-bombers, and etc.

What is going to be the next over-powered unit in the game by next month? Anyone want to start taking bets on it? Maybe someone will re-discover how the balista elephant is the ultimate over-powered unit.

 

[kcmarkwell]

Cho ko nos are not overpowered, but are extremely effective. The only counter to a monster chokono SOD is a bunch of Horse archers and most people dont bother building too many of those. I regularly use this strat in MP and have rarely ever lost with it (in fact, i dont think ive ever lost with this strat).

 

[ICNP]

Ahg! Attempted to make the WB scenario but after putting a lion into a stack of Promoted LBows I gave up. Anyone with more WB expierience please take this I am completely lost on how to build a stack of promoted units without going crazy.

 

[Tecibbar]

Am I missing something here?

As far as I know, Cho Ko Nu doesn't do as much damage as catapults, am I right?

 

[Bleys]

No, and they cant withdraw like Cats either.

However, they are a very very powerful unit just the same. ANY collateral damage is a good thing. Get em up to Drill 3 and those first strikes are just lethal.

Overpowered? Maybe, but they are fairly balanced, due to the techs and Iron requirement. So far, of the 10 or so different civs I have tried, they are my favorite UU, though, even above my old favorite, Fast Workers.