The Endless Power of China

[Firefight]

CKNs with Pro trait are a very good unit with other promotions

 

[URSExelcior]

Cho-Ko-Nu's aren't that great. They don't do nearly as much collateral damage as a catapult/trebuchet; you need too many of them to damage a stack sufficiently so they can start winning. Macemen/trebs are still better imo.

 

[Cabledawg]

Cho-Ko-Nu's aren't that great. ........... Macemen/trebs are still better imo.

Well lets just see if youre right. I did a WB test. I created a standard Mace/Treb attack stack consisting of 8 Macemen, 4 Trebs, and 1 chariot.....which cost 1365 hammers. I then purchased the same amount of hammers in Chokos....15. I didnt promote anyone. Neither side had an advantage. The fact that macemen would be promoted CR and the Choko would be drill would only further make the Choko more powerful. Not promoting either stack gives the Macemen more of a chance.

Heres the battle...whos gonna win? The first test is with the Chokos attacking.


Not even close. 1 Choko is lost. Its a combination of collateral and the fact that Chokos get a 50% bonus against melee...oh and the 2 first strikes help too.


Lets see what happens when the Mace/Treb stack attacks first. Send in the trebs first, then the Macemen.


Didja bet on the Chokos? Trebs attack first doing collateral, then maces attack. 3 Chokos lost and the mace stack will be obliterated next turn.


URSExelcior, if youre gonna go up against Chokos, have Horse units. Macemen against Chokos are like warriors against axemen.

 

[Gooblah]

I was thinking for the above simulation that, while it was great, there is one flaw:

I may just be nitpicky, but when you attacked with the Maces/Trebs, Asoka's (or Gandhi's) stack of Cho-Ko-Nus was unpromoted. Of course, it would have meant even less damage occurred, but it would keep the variables =.

 

[CivDude86]

I don't think anyone is doubting their ability as a field unit but the picture looks much different when it comes to cities.

 

[Iranon]

They're great against cities. If you're in a rush and wish to reduce defense + cause collateral damage in one round they replace additional trebuchets, giving you more units that can actually take a city, and more competent defenders to absorb counterattacks.

 

[r_rolo1]

I was thinking for the above simulation that, while it was great, there is one flaw:

I may just be nitpicky, but when you attacked with the Maces/Trebs, Asoka's (or Gandhi's) stack of Cho-Ko-Nus was unpromoted. Of course, it would have meant even less damage occurred, but it would keep the variables =.

I agree with the nitpicking... you atleast should had used a Agg leader for the mace/treb army.

And you disabled "random seed preserve" BTW?

Not that I'm doubting of the power of the chinese x-bow, but you really should not post a test consisting of a simple 1 time attacking round, or you'll get flamed because of the statistics. Considering that most of the combats don't have more than 10 hits, you should had made atleast a 20 time test battery for having a somewhat statstical significant result....

and trebs+maces would be far better agaisnt cities IMHO

 

[tuckerthecat]

I agree with the nitpicking... you atleast should had used a Agg leader for the mace/treb army.

And you disabled "random seed preserve" BTW?

Not that I'm doubting of the power of the chinese x-bow, but you really should not post a test consisting of a simple 1 time attacking round, or you'll get flamed because of the statistics. Considering that most of the combats don't have more than 10 hits, you should had made atleast a 20 time test battery for having a somewhat statstical significant result....

and trebs+maces would be far better agaisnt cities IMHO

Lets see trebs require engineering, macemen require machinery AND civil service, cho-ku-no's require machinery. The test should be are trebs & macemen better at taking cities vs longbows than cho-ku-no's vs archers. If you play the chinese you beeling machinery & can field xbows VERY early. When I play the chinese my xbow army is facing archers for the 1st war at least, I can usually absorb 2 or more civs before longbows come online. They also simply dominate in the field, the only early unit you have to fear is elephants.

 

[Cabledawg]

. you atleast should had used a Agg leader for the mace/treb army.

I didnt promote either army. The Chokos would have more first strikes had I promoted giving them more of an advantage. Plus it would take more time to promote them. It was just a quickie test.

And you disabled "random seed preserve" BTW?

I didnt touch any of the extra options

Considering that most of the combats don't have more than 10 hits, you should had made atleast a 20 time test battery for having a somewhat statstical significant result....

Rolo, help yourself, I dont have that kind of time. Even if YOU did the 20 test, how different can the results be? So you lose 1 or 2 more Chokos.

.....
and trebs+maces would be far better agaisnt cities IMHO

Sure..if youre playing the AI. If an AI has that Mace/Treb stack coming at your city Rolo, whadya gonna do with your Chokos? Youre gonna hit his stack before he gets to a hill or a forest. Or do like I do sometimes, let that CR stack walk into an undefended border city, then attack with the Chokos. Its like heaven on a stick.

Humans have such an advantage over the AI, that if you decide to use Macemen or Chokos, youre prolly gonna win.
Heres a test you should do Rolo....Take 8 longbows, put them in a grassland city....promote them all to CG2. Take as many promoted Maces and trebs as you need to take the city in 3 turns including 1 medic chariot......then spend the same amount of hammers and promotions on Chokos and cats. I wonder who will win?

 

[DeaExMachina]

Saying Treb/Mace vs Long while Cho vs Archer is a pointless comparison when we are talking about power.

In fact if you want to see real power someone should set up a test Infantry/Cannon vs Infantry and Cho vs Infantry. You'll see the Cho will still come out on top.

 

[MrCynical]

@Cabledawg: I think the comparison they were suggesting was that Maces/trebs are better than Cho-ko-nus when attacking cities. It's blatant that the CKNs will win in the above "test" since they're a counter unit to trebuchets. How would the two stacks do against a city with a stack of longbowmen?

Now I expect CKNs will do well against cities if you actually test them properly, but the above "test" really is drivel - it's the wrong situation since both stacks should be hitting a garrisoned city, and one attack is meaningless anyway. You need to be trying this 20+ times each way for the results to be statistically significant.

 

[vicawoo]

Yeah that's a pretty stupid test. That's like saying spearmen are better than chariots, or chariots are better than axes.

 

[pi-r8]

I remember trying out China and the Chos (lol, Chos) in Vanilla and being unimpressed. After reading this thread, I decided to try them out in BtS, and Wow! They really are up they're with the praetorians in terms of overpowered-ness. First of all, the protective trait REALLY helps these guys, since it lets me build drill 3 Chos out of the box. But also, since the AI builds such huge stacks in BtS, the collateral damage of the Chos is just out of control.

 

[TeraHammer]

In multiplayer, Cho ko nu's are great defenders, but poor attackers. Just make a few suicide catapults to weaken them (on the terrain you as defender choose) and then finish them with horse archers (who ignore first strikes!!!!). Single cho ko nu's going for hills or forests can be beaten by 1 or 2 horse archers.
I would not worry about a cho ko nu army, and would balance my troops carefully with elephants and such if I would attack with them.

I dont value crossbows in mp too highly, since guilds is pretty close to machinery and knights pretty much obsolete xbows. However, there were times players got a lucky metal casting hut, and then finished oracle and got machinery. Ouch, game pretty much over.

The power of china is building and teching, while cho ko nu's keep the lands safe from enemy invasions.

 

[Bleys]

Good thread DEM, thanks for the heads up.

I only have vanilla, but I totally agree that China is among the top 5 in civs, and its UU is top 3, easily.

Not sure about the protective trait, as I havent used it, but I am playing Qin in Vanilla, and IND/FIN + UU is just INCREDIBLY strong, especially when I go for the MC slingshot trying to generate a fast GE with a chopped/whipped forge. The GE can then build Mids (if it hasnt been built by me already) or go right for Colossus, a mega-wonder for FIN civs. It all just seems to fit like a glove. Machinery is an expensive tech, but its WELL worth it, nothing pre-gunpowder can stand up to a stack of CKNs. I had a game recently where I had Kubla Khan on one border, Monty on another very small border, and 3 IND civs to compete with for wonders, and it wasnt even close (only Prince level, so nothing special). Monty declared on me JUST as I was finished researching Machinery and hooking up Iron (happened the same turn, actually) and a small stack of CKNs totally owned 10+ Jags, in jungles even.

 

[ICNP]

I had played a China game back in vanilla. I really love the CHK as it just was so cheap to build. But when the Longbows showed up I definetly felt like I needed a Mace for the CR Promotions. Gotta try China again with Protective. I didn't make it a high enough priority to goto war.

 

[TeraHammer]

... MC slingshot trying to generate a fast GE with a chopped/whipped forge. The GE can then build Mids (if it hasnt been built by me already) or go right for Colossus, a mega-wonder for FIN civs.

I really think you're wasting the GE on colossus. First, you get cheap forges as IND, second with copper around you build collosus very fast once you get that cheap forge and being IND. Really, it usually takes me more time build the forge than to complete the colossus after that.
You need not rush the colossus, because other civs wont have MC yet.

Why not use him to lightbulb machinery for quick cho ko nus? Or settle him (which would be my choice).

 

[Bleys]

IWhy not use him to lightbulb machinery for quick cho ko nus? Or settle him (which would be my choice).

Totally agree. I have been either settling or bulbing GEs recently, and its much better.

I almost always get Iron close when I play china too (just as I almost always get horses when I play persia, etc etc). I think the game sort of "helps out" a bit with this, to be honest. My current game (again as China, Emperor, to try the MC slingshot and focus ONLY on my UU, so it was my intent to bulb the GE if I got one) had no less that 5 Iron tiles within a 10 tile square of my home.

 

[ICNP]

I'd like to do a different experiment with world builder. What would be good variables?

-Equal Hammers of Mace & Trebs vs. Chuks
-A city with 60%? Defense (No hill?)
-Half as many hammers worth of Longbows (maybe more?)
-Drill 3 Chuks, Combat 1 CR2 Maces & Barrage + Accuracy Trebs

List any more if needed

 

[TeraHammer]

Hmm i think you should make it a 0% cultural bonus city, and use trebs only for colletral damage to make this a fair match.