Well argued but I put the city walls there for a reason- so the city wouldn't get destroyed. While it is true that 'sabotaging the ports etc' sould be expected, you must take into account that there are no settler units in ZWK and it is unreasonable to assume that the germans could not rebuild any infrastructure destroyed. Allowing the Axis eventual access to a port in western france is a major aspect of the game. So in my opinion it is ok to sell all the improvements in Brest except for the walls to simulate sabotage etc. I guess starving the city down to size 1 is ok too as long as it exists for the germans to rebuild using food caravans, rush building or whatever.
The Evolution of PBEM Rules
- Thread starter kobayashi
- Start date
Well argued but I put the city walls there for a reason- so the city wouldn't get destroyed. While it is true that 'sabotaging the ports etc' sould be expected, you must take into account that there are no settler units in ZWK and it is unreasonable to assume that the germans could not rebuild any infrastructure destroyed. Allowing the Axis eventual access to a port in western france is a major aspect of the game. So in my opinion it is ok to sell all the improvements in Brest except for the walls to simulate sabotage etc. I guess starving the city down to size 1 is ok too as long as it exists for the germans to rebuild using food caravans, rush building or whatever.
willemvanoranje
Curitibano
I have no idea how I could've missed this thread.....good that germanos brought it under my attention.
(1) None-support of gifted units
Too bad Civ II works like this, but I don't see why it's an issue in ZWK; Allied give to Minor Allied in France, Axis to Minor Axis who can get those units to Africa or Russia. Of course one must think before giving units; you don't want an opponent or future enemy to get hands on your techs.
(2) Teleporting units by gifting
Again, both sides can use this tactic, I'd say it's allowed.
(3) Perhaps the more important issue: The use of these techniques as they affect the balance of ZWK games
Trading techs with players you aren't bounded with by the game is 99% of the time stupid in my opinion, and there's nothing wrong with giving techs to your minor allied/axis. I don't expect the PBEM's to show anything being really wrong in the game...
(3) Sabotage
all city improvements and railroads may be sabotaged, except for city fortifications. Cities may not be starved if they have a trigger on them. Simple, right?
(1) None-support of gifted units
Too bad Civ II works like this, but I don't see why it's an issue in ZWK; Allied give to Minor Allied in France, Axis to Minor Axis who can get those units to Africa or Russia. Of course one must think before giving units; you don't want an opponent or future enemy to get hands on your techs.
(2) Teleporting units by gifting
Again, both sides can use this tactic, I'd say it's allowed.
(3) Perhaps the more important issue: The use of these techniques as they affect the balance of ZWK games
Trading techs with players you aren't bounded with by the game is 99% of the time stupid in my opinion, and there's nothing wrong with giving techs to your minor allied/axis. I don't expect the PBEM's to show anything being really wrong in the game...
(3) Sabotage
all city improvements and railroads may be sabotaged, except for city fortifications. Cities may not be starved if they have a trigger on them. Simple, right?
germanos
King
I still think there is a maojor difference between Axis/minor Axis and Allied/Minor Allied/Soviet: the latter can do transcontinental transfer, whereas the axis is limited to transfer them to northern Italy or Rumania, after which the Minor axis still has a lot of effort to make to move them to the front in africa.
I must agree that once Germany has conquered France, this difference is reduced.
A question just came up when typing this: where do US, or even UK units end up when transferred to the Soviets? In europe or in asia? My guess would be the cities closest to Germany, since it is a flat world map?
Can Tim try this out? I cannot testplay and than switch to another tribe to see where they end up. How can you do that?
I must agree that once Germany has conquered France, this difference is reduced.
A question just came up when typing this: where do US, or even UK units end up when transferred to the Soviets? In europe or in asia? My guess would be the cities closest to Germany, since it is a flat world map?
Can Tim try this out? I cannot testplay and than switch to another tribe to see where they end up. How can you do that?
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
I still agree with PinkyGen's sentiment.
As for the Axis-Tech problem, The Wehrmacht division is going to be equal or inferior to anything being gifted (since I doubt the allies will be creating many militia). I am pretty sure it is functionally equal to an allied division and I dare say it is less useful than a Spitfire or even the crappy M3.
So long as no one uses the Axis technology or the research that it opens up, can't we just consider this to be a risk of gifting units: Your 40 sheild spitfire/M3just turned into a 20 shield, slow, no aircover infantry division - oh, and your friends now have to carrry the reseach cost of one additional tech that they can not use.
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
I am pretty sure most North American troops gifted to the Soviets end up somewhere in that first line of Soviet cities (leningrad-novgorod- rivne- some little town in the south?) depending on where they are gifted from. I think gifts from most US cities end up in the southern half of the USSR, but I'm not sure - I don't have the game here. All gifts go to the closest city as measured by counting 1 for every move diagonal (along the "flat" side of the square, and 1.5 for every move N,S,E, or W (along the "points" of the square), so if you are REALLY patient you can figure it out by just looking at the map. (I'm pretty sure it is smart enough that boats go to the nearest port city)
You can do the tests yourself by starting a new MP game and choosing Hot Seat game, scenario (zwk), 2 human players, and pick Allies and Soviets as player 1 and 2. That way you can control both civs. (You could also do it as an MP-Network game just like the PBEMs, but you would have to save, quit and reload after each civ takes it's turn so you can open it as the other civ.)
Start as the allies, gift some units from a city, and hit control-n, then the soviets turn will come up and you just open up cities until you find where things ended up.
germanos
King
Thanks Tim, I did the hot-seat, and these are the results (all based on turn 1 of the game)
US- France:
Norfolk, Phili, NY deliver in Casablanca
Boston delivers in Rabat
Detroit, Quebeq and Halifax deliver in Brest.
US- SU:
Halifax delivers in Novgorod
All else deliver in Rivne
This includes ships 
!!!
Now that would surprise the Germans, fighting a Capital Ship in Rivne
I think it would be more realistic if US-SU transfers would arrive in the Societ-Asia cities. Could this be achieved by making it a worldmap with some sea in between US and SU?
US- France:
Norfolk, Phili, NY deliver in Casablanca
Boston delivers in Rabat
Detroit, Quebeq and Halifax deliver in Brest.
US- SU:
Halifax delivers in Novgorod
All else deliver in Rivne
This includes ships !!!Now that would surprise the Germans, fighting a Capital Ship in Rivne
I think it would be more realistic if US-SU transfers would arrive in the Societ-Asia cities. Could this be achieved by making it a worldmap with some sea in between US and SU?
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
But then I believe there is a converse problem. Once the Axis takes Brest, if the walls survive the take-over or are re-built , and the axis puts a single torpedo there, the Allies can NEVER take the city without sending a boatload of commandos to knock out the walls first. One of the things I noticed in my tests is that the event fires as soon as the torpedoes are destroyed, not when the next axis turn begins, so if an allied unit kills a torpedo, it is immediately replaced before the allies can move another unit to occupy the city. That is why I figured it would be ok for the city to burn- the event still works, the brits can't kill the stacked torpedos no matter how hard they try, but the invincibility of the city is eliminated.
Anyway, you're the one who made this scenario that so many people are playing so it should ultimately be your call. It's only because there are so many games with people trying to find every little advantage that all these issues are coming up. I will go along with whatever you say - I certainly don't want to mess with the intent of the game.
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
But then in single player, the Soviet and Allied AIs would undoubtedly waste their entire productivity trying to fight each other instead of Germany.
I concede there is a problem there which I am encountering myself in Kiel for my current game. The (not perfect) solution is for some other force, like a French batleships to bombard the city and kill the torps. The regeneration sequence only works if the Allies do the killing.
The gifted battleship appearing inland is really funny.
Obviously the civ2 engine is still crappy and full of bugs even though it is several versions after Civ2 classic.p.s. I am going to post the 'official' additional house rules in the PBEM FAQ.
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