The Grand Managerie

[SwampCow]

After reading the Theater post I figured I start a thread on something that has bugged me for quite some time. I don't frequent the boards enough to know for sure if this has been discussed before but doesn't it seem that Grand Menagerie's pay-off as a wonder is grossly outweighed by its difficulty to construct?

This is far and away the hardest wonder to build due to its criteria and I fail to see it is even possible you'd still even need the carnivals considering how late in game I have ever seen it constructed. The Happy faces and bard would also be of little use that late.

Am I missing something? Is it more of a map size thing where ppl who play huge maps can build it because of all the various climate zones? I am lucky if I ever get four of the animal types. Five has only happened once (in hundreds of games) and that was an event triggered animal purchase.

 

[DemonMaster]

I haven't even bothered to look up what this wonder does, but I hope it will do alot since it is probably almost impossible to fullfill the criterias for it.

I think it is a map size thing and since many people (I guess) even increases the number of civs above default it becomes even more difficult than it already is (so I guess those people have looked at thought it isn't worth it).

I have played hundreds of games and I have been near a couple of times (with the purchase event), but no.

 

[JayThomas]

I was close a couple games ago. Sent hunters to uninhabited large island(by civs that is, plenty of barbs, animals around). I acually captured a tiger, lion, and a gorilla!!! Alas, barb hordes found me out and I lost them all (animals and hunters) before a ship could get there.

 

[schlalex]

I built it twice. And it is definetely worth it. If you build it early, it gives you a huge advantage. +3 happy faces in all cities (+7 in Capital) is great.A free GP is always nice. But the best is the free carnival in all cities. This means newly founded cities just have to work a couple of rounds an artist specialist. So you get the creative trait (nearly) for free.

So i think its ok, that it is so difficult to build.

 

[RogueThunder]

Ive done it once. Ever.

I mostly play huge, standard full compliment of AI's. I do usually get half the animals... But one game I got ridiculously lucky... I had like 9 bears, 3 tigers, 2 gorrillas, and uncountable wolfs and so on.... >.< (Really horrid because I was cardith... WTH do I do with 9 bears?!) The animals really had... populated strongly. And one of my scouts had... survived a few bear attacks... And no longer found them to be a threat ^.^'

Admitted, I also play all games with wildlands on. I cant imagine EVER building this wonder with it off. And the above game was a rare "WTH ANIMALS" I generaly find I cant get either a tiger, wolf, or gorrilla even when I really try...

Although. Nature's Revolt does somewhat help... ^.^ As long as you and your allies are ready for it.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Natures Revolt does not create any of the rarer animals.


In my modmod, I'm changing Summon Tiger to Summon Animal. It will randomly create an animal, possibly depending on the caster's strength/level/promotions, and possibly on the terrain/features on which it was cast.

That will make it much easier, at least for FoL Civs

 

[Demus]

Natures Revolt does not create any of the rarer animals.


In my modmod, I'm changing Summon Tiger to Summon Animal. It will randomly create an animal, possibly depending on the caster's strength/level/promotions, and possibly on the terrain/features on which it was cast.

That will make it much easier, at least for FoL Civs

like the FoL need any more happiness

Seriously, shouldn't this rather be a lvl 3 nature spell or something? Maybe a cross sphere nature - chaos (for the random factor)? Keep summon tiger a FoL spell though

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Maybe. It might also be better as a Druid Spell (available to Yvain too, of course)

Edit: now that I have the spell working (I had forgotten to define pPlayer before initializing the random animal), I do think is is too strong for a mere priest. For one thing, there is no limit on how many you can summon this way. I'm thinking it may be a FoL Religion specific Nature spell, available to FoL units in FoL civs with Nature 2 or 3 (I haven't decided which yet). It could be used by Druids, Yvain, or (arch?)mages who follow the religion. (I had already decided that each religion should permit at least one extra spell from a thematically appropriate sphere.)

 

[Blackmantle]

Since i played with reloading quite often (up until recently) i built it 4 or 5 times.
But only once quite early and twice only with the help of the "hunter event". Then it was really hefty. But later its near useless. (unless you have relly lots of uninhabited animal heavens + Run Fol in which case it might even later be nice. With about 2-3 free Happiness in each City)
(Without reload it should be way harder and if you then aim for the Menagerie you really should declare Nationality with those catched animals right on capture. Otherwise AI civs will capture it.)

But since summon Tiger has returned if you are really lucky and get the "hunters event" rather early (taking a gorilla is recommended then naturally if you don't have one allready) + run Fol you might be able to get it on Priesthood (and that might be quite early if you beeline FoL).

If you want any serious chance to build the menagerie you have to play with Wildlands on larger Maps with balanced Climate Zones though and really have to get Animal Husbandy quite early and catch Animals with big Stacks of Scouts instead of teching Hunters before going on the hunt. (Creation mapscript usually allows for uninhabited areas not so readily acessable for the AI of differing climates so theres quite often a place where you can find 2-3 Varieties even later.)

For Balspheraps, Svartalfar, Ljosalfar and Sidar that might be an option since they allready have some incentives to go down the recon line and / or FoL and bulb / build the Shrine with bards. (Thats when the Menagerie pays off most since you are really getting some greath bards if you get this wonder. Unless you really aim for something different.)

Might be worth too go cultural victory if one can pull that one of early. The cities should get really huge without hapiness issues that way and Cultre Wars are won easiely. (One might even try to agressively settle against an AI with high not such a huge output on Culture then. ) (if you get to the second expansion without the oposing city producing any culture you usually get the city revolting very fast. And 100 Culture might be not that far away. You do get some overlap that way but it might be worth it. Especially rather early in the Game or espacially against Barb cities. Who needs military when you can use the other civs populations envy instead. Won't work on AI Civs on Emperor or above though i whould guess. )
The massive culture boost from the Menagerie helps with that one as well for sure.

Maybe add the Spider Pen as a requirement but only require 5 out of 6 Cages?
Since the "Spider Mine" event happens quite frequently and "regular" Spiders really tend to survive here and there due to invisibility that should enhance its buildability quite remarkably i belive. (Not more that good on animal mastery but might still be worth it.)
Whould still be no easy feat but at least seen a bit more often...


One other advantage of FoL with that one: If you race Animal Mastery (and getting some Bards to bulb it massively speeds that one up which is very strong if done early) that way you might get some Sea-Monsters via Satyrs mesmerize which not only makes you dominate the land with your Rangers but also the early seas. Also some Elephants without battle (or you can "feed" them some Scouts in advance for XP. ) for some War Elepants.
Might not be relevant yet with the sea monsters part but maybe the AI gets to grasp Naval transport + warfare quite soon... Who knows?

 

[Marksman77]

Natures Revolt does not create any of the rarer animals.


In my modmod, I'm changing Summon Tiger to Summon Animal. It will randomly create an animal, possibly depending on the caster's strength/level/promotions, and possibly on the terrain/features on which it was cast.

That will make it much easier, at least for FoL Civs

Nice idea. On a sidenote summoning animals to have them caged seems a bit off-lore for an FoL civ Unless you pretend they're not locked in cages but cohabiting with people...?

 

[onedreamer]

I built it (soon enough) thanks to the Hunter event. Maybe this event should be more frequent in order to give civs more chances to build the Managerie. Although I think the AI will choose to hire the Hunter. Or does it choose randomly ?

 

[HadesScorn]

I actually built it just yesterday for the first time in...six months?

1. Be an autosave hog if you really want to get this. You won't have time most games to capture the rarer animals if you are constantly having to build and beef up new scouts. 1 super scout can take out even a Giant Spider by about turn 200.

2. Play on Marathon or Epic. Yes, the rest of the game will go slower. However, you have more time for movement, which means more goody huts popped before they become defended and more time to explore the farther reaches of your continent.

3. Get Animal Husbandry as quickly as possible for Subdue Animal. Other than that, focus exclusively on the Combat line of promotions.

4. Wolves are important, as they are wiped out fairly quickly when the AI starts expanding. Grab one in the first 50 turns. After that, beeline for desert and try and pick up a lion. Finally, head to the jungle to get the ever elusive Gorilla [this last game was the first time in about 12 I've even seen one]. If you can get a tiger, great. If not, aim for the spell.

5. Bears are never a problem. They are the only animal to create layers, and will run along your border wherever there is Tundra up through the end of the game.

Result: 3 free happiness is definitely worth it. Yes, its rather difficult to achieve. And if you manage to get 4 of the animals, you'll feel rather cheated. But, keep it in perspective. With four animals, you get another 3 happiness from the cages [I'm assuming you got the lousy +2 Culture Wolf Pen]. So aiming for the Menagerie is never useless. It gives your scout something to do besides popping hut and breaking up FoW.

 

[MaxAstro]

The Grand Menagerie is definately a useful wonder, but not quite useful enough to warrant the difficulty of building it... What I did in my personal mod-mod was give it a 5% chance per turn of generating a random animal out of the five animals that are required to build it. Now THAT makes it useful, as it will effectively constantly generate animal cages in all your cities. Or generate attackers, if you are lucky enough to get tigers and bears that you don't want to settle.

Warning: This is only balanced on normal and quick speeds; on epic or marathon you will get animals from it way faster than is fair. XD

 

[Ecofarm]

The 2 biggest reason it is near impossible:

1) AI settler spams, leaving little to no free space for animals early in the game. This also causes the AI to spread defenses to 10 cities half of which are in snow and jungle, but that's another symptom.

2) AI bonus vs. animals.

Rarely, an animal will get lucky against an AI. You can see this by a highly promoted animal. When this happens, the highly promoted animals starts to kill AI scouts like it does player scouts and the immediate area often becomes populated with various animals. If you find this situation, do not kill the highly promoted animal if you can avoid it, or leave it HN on sentry duty so that the area remains productive.

 

[A_Hamster]

Rarely, an animal will get lucky against an AI. You can see this by a highly promoted animal. When this happens, the highly promoted animals starts to kill AI scouts like it does player scouts and the immediate area often becomes populated with various animals. If you find this situation, do not kill the highly promoted animal if you can avoid it, or leave it HN on sentry duty so that the area remains productive.

So that's being green in Erebus!

Seriously, Creation works better for this. There are usually a few isolated valleys that the AI cannot get to due to Acheron or Barbatos, so the animals breed and even lair. It's fun when you get there and can harvest lots of animals for cages.

 

[Caradoc]

I get it most of the time, playing on Sto's mapgen which lets you have animals on the map at the start. The biggest problem is getting them home, so I like to send out an Adept with Haste along with my Scout or Hunter.

 

[loocas]

Maybe this is why it's going to have a scenario dedicated to it. Building it is quite an adventure on its own. It might not even exist in its current form come "Ice."

That is, assuming the scenario has something to do with the wonder, and isn't just sharing the name.

 

[PacoDeth]

I can never find Gorilla's.

 

[Halancar]

I've built it a few times. I usually play with the Creation mapscript, and it is very good at creating safe areas for animals. Getting gorillas still requires a fair bit of luck (tigers now come with FoL, making them easy in the late game), but lions, wolves and bear are relatively easy. So I manage to build it around one quarter of the times.

Now, if only the AI was not so good at wiping them off in regular maps...

 

[Randolph]

Out of probably a hundred games I've only gotten all the animals once, and then the save got corrupted or something, and I never got to build the GM (constant CTDs). Some day... Some day...