The Great Purge

[red_elk]

In the other thread we had a discussion about exact numbers of victims of Stalin's repressions in 1934-1953. I'd like to move discussion in the separate thread in order not to spoil previous.

Here is all the information I've given there, in brief:

1. Total number of victims for the entire period 1934-1953 was about 2-3 millions. This number includes executed people, people who died in GULAG, prisons and exile places, peasants died in resettlement, and other categories. From this number, about 800,000 of people were executed for political reasons [1].
2. Annual totals for detained population was 2-3 millions (for pre-war years around 3 millions).
Population of GULAG camps varied in range 500,000 - 1,700,000.
Number of political prisoners in GULAG varied in range 100,000 - 500,000. [1]
To give an idea on how large this number is, currently US prisons population is about 2,300,000 people. [2][3]
3. At least part of numbers given by Solzhenitsyn in his books are exaggerated by several times. Example - estimation of annual number of inmates as 12-15 millions [4].

[1] "Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-war Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence" J. ARCH GETTY, GABOR T. RITTERSPORN, and VIKTOR N. ZEMSKOV
http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/AHR/AHR.html
[2] "US Rates of Incarceration: A Global Perspective." Christopher Hartney.
http://www.nccd-crc.org/nccd/pubs/20...arceration.pdf
[3] "Inmate Count in U.S. Dwarfs Other Nations’" New York Times, By Adam Liptak. Published: April 23, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html
[4] "The First Circle", A. Solzhenitsyn, 1968
http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLZHENICYN/vkp2.txt (Russian)

I'm not discussing here the moral aspect of the terror. Of course, unjust execution of people cannot be tolerated no matter the scale of repressions. But knowing real statistics is necessary.

So, if anybody wants to discuss it or share some information, please post here.

 

[sydhe]

Gernerally when you hear large figures on how many people Stalin killed, they're including the Ukranian famine, which killed 2 - 7 million, and which a lot of people blame on Stalinist policy. There were also a lot people who starved during forced industrialization.

 

[red_elk]

Need to check these data, 2-7 millions for Ukraine only, looks also doubtful. Anyway I believe such kind of data should be considered separately. Though government must take responcibility for the victims of famine, they can hardly be counted together with executed people as victims of repressions.

 

[sydhe]

The reason Stalin gets blamed is because the famine is generally thought to be due to deliberate government policy rather than natural factors, and was related to resistance to collectivization. It's known the toll was in the millions.

 

[REDY]

He was also selling grain when his people needed it to survive. (well not "his", he wanted punish Ukrainians)

 

[RedRalph]

He was also selling grain when his people needed it to survive. (well not "his", he wanted punish Ukrainians)

Actually many Russians starved in that famine too and Stalin was Georgian in any case. It was a war against a class, not a nationality.

 

[REDY]

No that wasnt communist thing, it was more as his revenge.

 

[RedRalph]

No that wasnt communist thing, it was more as his revenge.

Revenge for what and if so how come Russians died in it? If he had a patholigical hatred for Ukranians then how come the famine ever ended? If he was just murderouly bent on killing them all why did he stop? Why did he emply Khruschev who was practically Ukranian himself? It was a very badly undertaken action against a class, well off farmers who happened mostly to live in the breadbasket of the USSR, the Ukraine. I dont support it, I never did, but it was directed at Kulaks, not Ukranians. Otherwise why would it have spilled over into Russia?

 

[CruelDwarf]

He was also selling grain when his people needed it to survive.

USSR grain exports:
1929 - 240 thousand tonnes
1930 - 4.8 million tonnes.
1931 - 5.2 million onnes.
1932 - 1.8 million tonnes.
1933 - 1.7 million tonnes.
1934 - 840 thousand tonnes.

So during the famine grain export was reduced by 3 times.

He was also selling grain when his people needed it to survive. (well not "his", he wanted punish Ukrainians)

If Stalin want to "punish Ukrainians" why during the famine Ukraine recieved more then 500 thousand tonnes of grain from the state reserve funds?

 

[Yeekim]

On Topic:

Stalin walked into Lenin's office and asked, "Vladimir Ilyich, may I order to shoot a dozen communists?"
"If the interests of the Party demand it, by all means," Lenin answered.
"Vladimir Ilyich, if necessary, may we shoot one hundred communists?"
"If necessary, the answer is Yes."
"Vladimir Ilyich, may we, if need be, shoot one thousand Party members?"
"If there is a real need, yes."
"Vladimir Ilyich, may we, if the situation demands, shoot one million of Party Members?"
"Eh, Iosif Vissarionovich, now we'll criticize you in a comradely way, and may even say to you that you exaggerated a little."

 

[luiz]

It's very hard to accurately determine how many people died because of Stalin. Dmitri Volkogonov, Soviet General and once president of the History Department of the Soviet Army, as well as the man who presided the first commitee with full access to the Moscow Files, places the total death toll at above 20 millions.

 

[luiz]

USSR grain exports:
1929 - 240 thousand tonnes
1930 - 4.8 million tonnes.
1931 - 5.2 million onnes.
1932 - 1.8 million tonnes.
1933 - 1.7 million tonnes.
1934 - 840 thousand tonnes.

So during the famine grain export was reduced by 3 times.

That's because production fell much more then 3 times, what caused the famine to begin with. The simple fact that they were exporting that much while millions were starving to death (having their production confiscated) is proof enough of the sick and monstrous nature of the regime created by Lenin and his thugs.

 

[CruelDwarf]

Well, then famines in Imperial Russia were proof for monstrous nature of regime of Romanovs? Famines in India was a proof about crimal nature of British colonial administration? Famines in native americans populations also because of some thugs in USA government?


In fact Famine of 1932-33 was the last great famine in Russia history (famine of far lesser scale was after the Second World War in 1946-47). But before it famines was occured regulary every few years.
Famines was occured in Soviet period in 1927-28 and 1921-23.
But they also were regular in Imperial Russia:
1901 - famine in 17 regions of South, West and Central Russia
1905 - famine in 22 regions.
In 1906-1908 were series of famines in various regions.
And the last prewar famine was in 1911.

So - famines in Russia and Ukraine were a great problem, but it not created by some "Lenin thugs".

 

[luiz]

Well, then famines in Imperial Russia were proof for monstrous nature of regime of Romanovs? Famines in India was a proof about crimal nature of British colonial administration? Famines in native americans populations also because of some thugs in USA government?


In fact Famine of 1932-33 was the last great famine in Russia history (famine of far lesser scale was after the Second World War in 1946-47). But before it famines was occured regulary every few years.
Famines was occured in Soviet period in 1927-28 and 1921-23.
But they also were regular in Imperial Russia:
1901 - famine in 17 regions of South, West and Central Russia
1905 - famine in 22 regions.
In 1906-1908 were series of famines in various regions.
And the last prewar famine was in 1911.

So - famines in Russia and Ukraine were a great problem, but it not created by some "Lenin thugs".

Except that the famines under the Soviets were by far the worst, and agricultural production in Soviet Russia in the 1930 was inferior to agricultural production prior to the Revolution - because of the monstrous, and stupid, collectivization.

You absolutely do not have a point. As technology improves, it is expected that agricultural production improves as well. The opposite happened in the first stages of Soviet rule; it took decades to reach pre-Revolution levels. But they kept exporting grains.

Most countries in the world that had famines in the past, outside of Sub-Sahaaran Africa, no longer have famines today. You can't possibly excuse a 20th century regime that produced a huge famine on the basis that there were famines in the past - specially considering that the famine they produced was the biggest.

 

[REDY]

Revenge for what and if so how come Russians died in it? If he had a patholigical hatred for Ukranians then how come the famine ever ended? If he was just murderouly bent on killing them all why did he stop? Why did he emply Khruschev who was practically Ukranian himself? It was a very badly undertaken action against a class, well off farmers who happened mostly to live in the breadbasket of the USSR, the Ukraine. I dont support it, I never did, but it was directed at Kulaks, not Ukranians. Otherwise why would it have spilled over into Russia?

I dont claim that collectivization was againist Ukrainians, it was step to make classless society and had casualties. I am saying that large number of Ukrainians died not because this but because Stalin wanted it. Main purpose was undermine Ukrainian resistance and destroy Ukrainian national identity. On Ukrainians were put specialy high grain quotas, soviets were removing any food and intercepting any help from outside. Ukrainian grain was sent to Russia to feed cities and to be sold abroad. Many foreign countries offered help, but Soviets allowed help only to other areas like south Russia. Aid for Ukraine was gave nearly year later. Result was that nearly all nationalitieswere was growing, Ukrainian decisively decreased.

 

[CruelDwarf]

Except that the famines under the Soviets were by far the worst, and agricultural production in Soviet Russia in the 1930 was inferior to agricultural production prior to the Revolution - because of the monstrous, and stupid, collectivization.

Really?
In famines of 1901 were perished almost 3 million of people. In 1911 - 1.5 million.
"Superior" agriculture of Imperial Russia you say?
Simpe comparsion - average consumption of various foods in 1913 and rations of GULAG prisoner in 1952:
1913/1952
Bread: 550 g per day/800 g per day (69% of GULAG ration)
Meat: 80 g per day/50 g per day (160% of GULAG ration)
Fish: 18 g per day/75 g per day (24% of GULAG ration)
Sugar: 22 g per day/27 g per day (82% of GULAG ration)

So USSR goverment fed thier prisoners better, then Imperial Russia fed free peasants and workers.

You absolutely do not have a point. As technology improves, it is expected that agricultural production improves as well. The opposite happened in the first stages of Soviet rule; it took decades to reach pre-Revolution levels. But they kept exporting grains.

In fact - pre-revolutian agricultural output was reached in 1928-29, when massive grain export was began. But Imperial Russia exported as average around 10 million tonnes of grain per year. USSR never exported as much.

 

[red_elk]

It's very hard to accurately determine how many people died because of Stalin. Dmitri Volkogonov, Soviet General and once president of the History Department of the Soviet Army, as well as the man who presided the first commitee with full access to the Moscow Files, places the total death toll at above 20 millions.

The goal of this thread is to show that such estimations were... unreliable.

Mainstream published estimates of the total numbers of “victims of repression” in the late 1930s have ranged from Dmitrii Volkogonov's 3.5 million to Ol'ga Shatunovskaia's nearly 20 million. (See Table 1.) The bases for these assessments are unclear in most cases and seem to have come from guesses, rumors, or extrapolations from isolated local observations. As the table shows, the documentable numbers of victims are much smaller.

I dont claim that collectivization was againist Ukrainians, it was step to make classless society and had casualties. I am saying that large number of Ukrainians died not because this but because Stalin wanted it. Main purpose was undermine Ukrainian resistance and destroy Ukrainian national identity. On Ukrainians were put specialy high grain quotas, soviets were removing any food and intercepting any help from outside. Ukrainian grain was sent to Russia to feed cities and to be sold abroad. Many foreign countries offered help, but Soviets allowed help only to other areas like south Russia. Aid for Ukraine was gave nearly year later. Result was that nearly all nationalitieswere was growing, Ukrainian decisively decreased.

Do you have documentary sources to back it up? I don't mind to distrust it yet, just it looks like you retell some movie.

 

[luiz]

@Cruel Dwarf: I am not bothering to properly respond until you produce some evidence for all those numbers.

Furthermore, even you acknowledge that it took many years to reach pre-Revolution agricultural output (and in reality it took more than you admit), which is proof enough of the catastrophe and monstrousity that was the collectivization.

The Ukranian famine alone probably killed more than all 20th century famines of Imperial Russia combines. It killed from 2.2 to 3.5 million people. Directly as result of soviets confiscating the peasant's production and forcing collectivization over a peasant population that outright rejected it. I simply don't know any word strong enough to express my disgust at the evilness that was the collectivization process and how despicably unhuman are its apologists.

The goal of this thread is to show that such estimations were... unreliable.

Mainstream published estimates of the total numbers of “victims of repression” in the late 1930s have ranged from Dmitrii Volkogonov's 3.5 million to Ol'ga Shatunovskaia's nearly 20 million. (See Table 1.) The bases for these assessments are unclear in most cases and seem to have come from guesses, rumors, or extrapolations from isolated local observations. As the table shows, the documentable numbers of victims are much smaller.

My point is that Volkogonov certainly had better access to information than most, if not all. The total death toll he attributes to Stalin is in excess of 20 millions.

 

[Yeekim]

So - famines in Russia and Ukraine were a great problem, but it not created by some "Lenin thugs".

On May 15, 2003, the Verkhovna Rada (parliament) of Ukraine passed a resolution declaring the famine of 1932–1933 an act of genocide, deliberately organized by the Soviet government against the Ukrainian nation. On November 26, 2006 the Ukrainian Parliament approved a bill, according to which the Soviet-era forced famine was an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people.

So, would you care to offer any explanation, why Ukrainians themselves have different opinion? Simply because they are fascist revisionists who only want to piss of Russia? Or is the memory of entire nation "playing tricks on them"?

 

[red_elk]

Luiz, the same question for you, you haven't provided anything yet, except link to wikipedia article, which nominated to be checked for neutrality.

For Volkogonov - he died in 1995, when KGB and Defence Ministry archives were not uncovered yet.