People keep saying that HRE was neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire. Not true! It was definetly Christian with religious leaders and followed the Pope in Rome (Holy and partialy Roman). The part about it not being an Empire makes so little sence that I have no arguement for it. The quote reffers to the HRE when it was late in its life and people keep using in a way that it applies for the HRE's entire life.
The HRE was Holy, partialy Roman, and an Empire!
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bonafide11
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^^ I agree, but I don't think it was necessary to start another HRE thread to make the argument. 
cybrxkhan
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someones going to get angry, and it aint me... yet. another of a long and dying lineage of HRE threads.
another of a long and dying lineage of HRE threads. TheLastOne36
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So we should rename civs Holy Arabia, Holy England, Holy Spain, Holy America, Holy China etc. all because they had a religion?
The people weren't even Roman. It was by no means roman. the name was just a name. Roman has no meaning in it's name. And Rome has no part in the creation of the Holy Roman Empire.
the (nor an Empire) part, was just added in for effect!
But it doesn't come under my definition of an empire either. An empire has to have some sort of Leader. (but not +200 leaders. ) and has to have conquered some territories of some significance.
The people weren't even Roman. It was by no means roman. the name was just a name. Roman has no meaning in it's name. And Rome has no part in the creation of the Holy Roman Empire.
the (nor an Empire) part, was just added in for effect!
But it doesn't come under my definition of an empire either. An empire has to have some sort of Leader. (but not +200 leaders. ) and has to have conquered some territories of some significance.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
Holy Cow! thats alot.
just because it has religion doesn't mean its holy, like TheLastOne said.
the people weren't Roman, they're Germanic, the people who DESTROYED the Roman empire to begin with.
just because it has religion doesn't mean its holy, like TheLastOne said.
the people weren't Roman, they're Germanic, the people who DESTROYED the Roman empire to begin with.
TheLastOne36
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Holy Cow! thats alot.
just because it has religion doesn't mean its holy, like TheLastOne said.
the people weren't Roman, they're Germanic, the people who DESTROYED the Roman empire to begin with.
Well Rome almost destroyed itself at the time of Nero.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
my apoplogies to the Eastern Romaners.
correction:
...the Germanics destroyed the Western Roman Empire.
correction:
...the Germanics destroyed the Western Roman Empire.
It wasn't an empire either. It had no central state authority from which to force the outlying regions to supply the center.
Once religion became any kind of issue in Europe, the HRE broke into a civil war over religion. Ergo, once "Holiness" was an option it shattered the country.
The capital was at Aachen (de jure) and Vienna (de facto), not Rome. Rome wasn't even a part of the country since it was within the Papal States.
It was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.
It was a German-North Italian Confederation.
Once religion became any kind of issue in Europe, the HRE broke into a civil war over religion. Ergo, once "Holiness" was an option it shattered the country.
The capital was at Aachen (de jure) and Vienna (de facto), not Rome. Rome wasn't even a part of the country since it was within the Papal States.
It was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.
It was a German-North Italian Confederation.
Gilder
Deity
So we should rename civs Holy Arabia, Holy England, Holy Spain, Holy America, Holy China etc. all because they had a religion?
The people weren't even Roman. It was by no means roman. the name was just a name. Roman has no meaning in it's name. And Rome has no part in the creation of the Holy Roman Empire.
the (nor an Empire) part, was just added in for effect!
Hey, it's what the HRE chose to name itself. Other countries could have called themselves Holy England, or Holy Spain.
Rome does have some part in the creation of the HRE because it fell under influence of the Pope, originally, who was centered in Rome governing his own Papal States.
There is so much wrong with your last statement. It is an Empire. It came to rule a pretty good chunk of central Europe. I'm not entirely sure why many leaders aren't a requirement for an Empire. The Roman Empire had over hundred Emperors in its lifetime.
You're kidding, right? Rome wouldn't reach it's peak until Trajan whom came after Nero.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
he meant there were a bunch of little leaders for the little states that made up the "empire". and they were squabblin'.
didn't you see his
???TheLastOne36
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i edited my Nero post. Read again.
Rome had a 100 Emperors all at ones lifetime?
Rome had a 100 Emperors all at ones lifetime?
Saying the HRE isn't an Empire just because there were many leaders under the Emperor is like saying America isn't a country.
bonafide11
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As I've brought up before, all arguments against the Holy Roman Empire could be applied to the Byzantines too. I am glad they are both included.
TheLastOne36
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how? America has A President. not 100+ presidents.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
all those leaders were pretty much independant rulers in their own accord. thats why you saw them fighting each other. well, apparently, we don't see California trying to nuke Texas (yet).
Gaius Octavius
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"Well, some girl'd giggle, and I'd get red...
"Some guy'd laugh, and I'd bust his head...
"I tell ya... Life ain't easy for the HRE!"
The Roman part comes in because Charlemagne was crowned "emperor of the Romans" (when, in fact, there really was nothing Roman about it).
The Holy part comes in because of the Christian connotation, obviously.
The Empire part comes in because of the control over a large portion of central (not Eastern!) Europe.
Of course, all this has no bearing on the "should it be a civ" argument. And no, we don't need another thread to talk about it.
"Some guy'd laugh, and I'd bust his head...
"I tell ya... Life ain't easy for the HRE!"
The Roman part comes in because Charlemagne was crowned "emperor of the Romans" (when, in fact, there really was nothing Roman about it).
The Holy part comes in because of the Christian connotation, obviously.
The Empire part comes in because of the control over a large portion of central (not Eastern!) Europe.
Of course, all this has no bearing on the "should it be a civ" argument. And no, we don't need another thread to talk about it.
TheLastOne36
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Well said. 
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
HRE doesn't rhyme with red or head. (off-topic)
The HRE was very ununified after about 1500 but it was unified before.
Gaius Octavius
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cybrxkhan: You've obviously never heard the original song. 
It was "Life ain't easy for a boy named Sue."
It was "Life ain't easy for a boy named Sue."
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