The HRE was Holy, partialy Roman, and an Empire!

[SomethingWicked]

Why don't look that up because it says "Thou shall not murder". Murder excludes killing criminals, killing in self-defence, and killing in war.

The King James Version uses "kill" as do the New American Bible and Luther's bible translation. I think Jewish and some Protestant versions use "murder".
So it's up to the inclined reader if he prefers "kill" or "murder". Personally, I prefer the "kill" interpretation as that would exclude the death penalty, or killings condoned by a church (like the inquisition).

the concept of a nation state, in my opinion, is a pathetic attempt by the Europeans to try to separate themselves from one another and act like all of those educators back some years ago: "Hey, we are all special in our own unique ways and we all have our own strengths... and we're all special..." and all that goody stuff.

I wouldn't call it pathetic, I'd rather call it natural. We all form groups in opposition to others, like "We are not like them". Not being like other people is an elementary part of a lot of groups (just think of political parties: social democrats are not conservatives or liberals).
The great challenge for the human mind would then be to try and trancend these borders where it's possible, focussing about what we have in common and not what separates us. In the political realm, the European Union would be a prime example of this: "We are all European" in addition to being German, French, British (to an extent ) or whoever else..

 

[r_rolo1]

I've consulted other Bibles in other languauges and of Catholic , Protestants and not religious related translations, and most of then have the idea of not killing ( the portuguese Catholic version, based on the Hieronimus Vulgata, the portuguese protestant version of João Ferreira de Almeida, the French catholic version ( Hieronimus Vulgata again ), Reina-valera 1960 (spanish), King's James version ( both the original as the 21 century version)(english), American standart version (english)) and only the american New American standart version and the english speaking New International version had the idea of murder ( see this site http://www.biblegateway.com/... only has Protestant bibles, the Catholic ones I'm seing in paper ).
I think that the original Idea was really of not killing, period. But I have to agree that neither the Jews or the Christians had any kind of problem in twisting this to go to war with God's blessing ( as well as muslims, but that is another holy book... )

 

[SomethingWicked]

I think that the original Idea was really of not killing, period. But I have to agree that neither the Jews or the Christians had any king of problem in twisting this to go to war with God's blessing ( as well as muslims, but that is another holy book... )

I agree. I just looked it up: Vulgata indeed had the notion of "non occides". "occidere" is to kill, while tollere (or perhaps caedere as well), means to murder. So good ol' Hieronymus obviously indeed just meant "killing".

 

[Dnomal]

Unless this is your very first time browsing the BtS forum, I have no clue why you would think that.

Sorry? Care to explain that, I've no idea what you're trying to imply...

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

Sorry? Care to explain that, I've no idea what you're trying to imply...

Maybee...a lot of people have shown they hate the idea of the
HRE being added...

 

[cybrxkhan]

I wouldn't call it pathetic, I'd rather call it natural. We all form groups in opposition to others, like "We are not like them". Not being like other people is an elementary part of a lot of groups (just think of political parties: social democrats are not conservatives or liberals).
The great challenge for the human mind would then be to try and trancend these borders where it's possible, focussing about what we have in common and not what separates us. In the political realm, the European Union would be a prime example of this: "We are all European" in addition to being German, French, British (to an extent ) or whoever else..

I agree, but i just really hated it in school when the teachers told me how "nationalism" was this special "magic" thing that transitioned the world from primitive to modern.

i had already been a student of history for years when they told me this, so i already had my own views on history. when they "taught" me that stuff, two things popped in my mind:

1. Nationalism is that technology you can research in Civ3 that gives you riflemen.

and

2. Nationalism is just another way of saying "i'm from this place".

and now i have no idea what i just said, or what this has to do with the thread... ???

 

[r_rolo1]

I agree. I just looked it up: Vulgata indeed had the notion of "non occides". "occidere" is to kill, while tollere (or perhaps caedere as well), means to murder. So good ol' Hieronymus obviously indeed just meant "killing".

Somebody that still knows his Latin.... .Finally someone that understands my sig

Back on issue, HRE was not holy in any meaningful way, had his days of being Roman ( few ) and was a empire until 1075, when the emperor was forced to be a somewhat decorative person. So , 2-1 to the OP

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Firaxis admits the HRE is Germany!!!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=155984&d=1184743471

 

[Pangur Bán]

Firaxis admits the HRE is Germany!!!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=155984&d=1184743471

At least they get their history correct some of the time. Unlike the guys who decide on the civs, the guy doing the civilopedia at least has to do a little research.

 

[Antilogic]

Has somebody mentioned the "not Holy, not Roman, and not an Empire" was a famous quote from ages past yet? I don't have the patience to read through this entire thread because I'm busy looking at the screenshots from the game, but that's where the quote comes from--Civfanatics didn't invent it or anything.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

It's been mentioned on some of the other ~20 threads about this topic.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I have often heard that while most Bibles says "kill," "murder" is a better translation of the original Hebrew (thus it is used in the more modern translations direct from the Hebrew, and in corrections to older versions, like NKJV). "Occidere" while sometimes referring to other kinds of killing, can be translated as murder as well. Literally, it is to "cut down on account of (something)" (ob+cidere). That something (although not specified; most words including ob tend to merely imply the object of the preposition) would be the hatred and premeditation making the killing a murder. When does "tollere" mean murder; I thought it meant to lift, raise, steal, etc. "Caedere" would fit about as well as "occidere", but if he really wanted to emphasize "murder" he would likely have used "necare." Still, other parts of the old testament make it clear that murder was meant. For instance, there were cities of refuge to which anyone who killed another by accident could flee and be protected from all harm. However, if they had premeditated the killing or killed from malice (i.e., if it was a murder and not merely manslaughter) he would be dragged away and put to death.

I think I heard somewhere that the Catholic church in the middle ages defined killing as shedding blood (cutting through the skin); thus priests only killed by burning, strangling, drowning, or bludgeoning to with a blunt mace (when they decided to ride out into battle like a lay leader). This may stem from an overly literal translation of the term used in libro Exodi (Ellesmoth) iuxta Biblia Sacra Vulgata Sancti Hieronymi Presbyteri.

"He who conquers is not a conquerer if he does not profess it as his living." Shouldn't lem(m)a have 2 m's?