The Iroquois Strategy

[amateurgamer88]

I have recently tried out the Iroquois and I was wondering if I was playing them right.

First, let us look at their UA. Forest/Jungle plays a key role here as it's needed for road connections and for Woodlands to be very useful. However, we don't always have control over where such a terrain spawns and, other than our capital that has a starting bias, this may or may not benefit our other cities. During late game when all the AIs cut down their forests/jungles to improve their tiles, then there's very little, if any, forests/jungle for us to utilize. I guess Woodlands at least gives you defensive bonus on hills. The same can be said about the Natural Wonders as their locations can vary a lot.

Secondly, the Mohawk Warrior doesn't need iron and can fight very well in forests/jungles. Even though they are available early when there are still such tiles around, you might also encounter situations where you're fighting on foes that don't have such tiles. Then Mohawk Warrior is a slightly better swordsmen but without the need for iron.

Thirdly, we have the Longhouse that gives a pretty good boost early game but, without many forest/jungle tiles, I don't know how good it becomes. The food and culture is nice but it certainly doesn't make you want to get it urgently, especially if you don't have a monopoly of a luxury that needs plantations. I don't even think this buildings improves with era so it stays like this even late game.

When I look at their UA, UU and UB, I feel like they're underpowered overall. The capital will benefit a lot with the starting bias but their other cities depend very heavily on RNG. The early game for the Iroquois is quite strong but even that depends on way too many factors. From what I've played so far, the Iroquois seems like a civ where you maximize your early game and use that to snowball. Mid and late game is there they are just an ordinary civ that has nothing that stands out.

Am I playing/viewing the Iroquois wrong?

 

[pineappledan]

Yup! kinda.

The iroquois have to major competencies over other civs: 1) Tied with Songai for highest early production, 2) Unparalleled mobility in a defensive war.

Cons:

• As you have stated, the biggest problem with Iroquois is that they are the only terrain-based civ where the feature they get bonuses from are removable.
  • This makes them a middling domination power thanks to the AI's tendency to clear forests. Early conquest will be very potent, with your UU and high mobility, since forest/jungle is very common, but maintaining momentum past Renaissance can be difficult.
  • The importance of forests for Iroquois means you need to conquer/settle your forest dominion fast, before the AI can clear it. This might mean settling out further and more aggressively than you otherwise might. Iroquois rewards riskier settling if it translates into more forest for you to save from the AI and their axes
• Iroquois is also a civ where I have felt the need to re-roll a map based on how little forest surrounds me. You will always get at least 1 forest tile, but in my experience you might have literally 1 forest tile. Whether or not a game is any fun is entirely dependent on a decent map roll.

Pros (assuming a "normal" Iroquois game, where you spawn in a legitimate forest):

• Good 1st scouting - Your free pathfinder gets Woodsman, so you get double movement in forest immediately. You can focus on the survivalism tree, and not feel like you're missing out on ruins or rapid exploration with Iroquois.
• Highest ultra-early production - Once you rush Calendar, Iroquois have very high production immediately, with no need for workers. Top priority techs are Calendar and Hunting for this reason, so you can expose bananas and deer.
  • This means Iroquois are very good at building early wonders. You get two large spikes in production over other civs - one at longhouse and one at lumbermills - so use them to secure early wonders so you can last into later eras with their bonuses. Iroquois is perhaps the 1 civ where you might even be able to get a pre-medieval wonder in a secondary city.
• Less maintenance than any other civ = more early gold = more early infrastructure investment:
  • Because your pathfinder covers more ground than a normal pathfinder right away, and opts for the more durable promotion line, I often get away with not buying any additional scouts early.
  • Your units can cover a lot more ground than a normal army so you can stretch thinner, and can fend off barbarians very well with fewer units.
  • Because your bonuses are all to forests, you wont be clearing them. You don't need a lot of roads except to bridge patchy section of your forest, so you can get away with fewer workers early because they are only going to be working on camp and plantation improvements until you get into Classical. Less maintenance paid on workers as a result
  • Forests are roads ==> no roads ==> no road maintenance
  • Your early city connections with no roads means city connection gold starts immediately, and are immediately profitable. Other civs, need dozens of turns to establish road systems and usually at a loss, because road maintenance is more than city connection gold until you have >6 pop in the secondary city.
• Good mixed tiles = low distress. Immediate city connections = low/no isolation
• Your units have roads movement on forests in your land, while enemies expend the normal 2 movement.
  • This translates into an overwhelming mobility advantage on defense; you move 4-6 times faster than an invading army.
  • Opt for indirect fire for your ranged units, rather than logistics/range - You can harass incoming forces through uninterrupted forest without any fear or reprisal.
  • Your border blob can be an effective weapon. Consider Himeji castle and Angkor Wat for focusing.
  • Actively goad other civs into wars on your turf. You can drain attention and resources away from neighbouring civs by bleeding them with wars they can't hope to win.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Yup! kinda.

The iroquois have to major competencies over other civs: 1) Tied with Songai for highest early production, 2) Unparalleled mobility in a defensive war.

Thanks for the breakdown! This makes a lot more sense and, if the AI Iroquois doesn't cut down so many forests, it would be quite a threat given how much it likes to forward settle you and expand very rapidly. I thought their Longhouse don't stack with camps?

I guess what I don't like is that you seem to need to reroll into a solid start to get anywhere. Getting boxed in and all of that can hurt you very badly. I'm assuming that, if your early game isn't stellar, it's quite a nightmare to climb back from that?

 

[pineappledan]

Longhouse don't stack with camps

They do not, otherwise the furs/deer/truffles camps would be far too strong. Unfortunately, this means that bison suuuuck for Iroquois. They get the normal boost to forest from iroquois’ longhouse, so it’s still worth improving deer ASAP

you seem to need to reroll into a solid start to get anywhere. Getting boxed in and all of that can hurt you very badly. I'm assuming that, if your early game isn't stellar, it's quite a nightmare to climb back from that?

The same can be said if any civ with a geography focus. Inca are screwed if they don’t get many mountains. Any hardcore warmonger is screwed if nearby civs have highly defensible land. Polynesia are the weirdest with their obsession with land masses that are exactly 2 tiles thick. Given that jungle and forest are the 2 most common terrain types on a standard map, they are perhaps the least variable of the geographic civs.

I would also note that as long as you have >10 forest tiles near your capital, and a few forested settlement spots nearby, it’s very hard to have a bad early game with Iroquois

 

[CrazyG]

Your early city connections with no roads means city connection gold starts immediately, and are immediately profitable.

Fun fact, when you found a zero population city, it actually earns negative gold for its city connection. Its positive when it reaches 2 population (not that this changes your point, you are still right).

A big thing about the Iroquious is you can potentially go progress and take the science per city connections, which is really powerful with free city connections. You can settle really wide without hurting your science, potentially get swordsmen really quickly and do some damage.

 

[Galbias]

In particular, a heavily forested area seems like it would be extremely defensible with smart use of mounted ranged units.

On a random side note, Mohawk Warriors are kind of a lame UU to get from a CS since the forest movement is part of the Iroquois UA, so it's really just a Swordsman with +1 CS, no Iron requirement, and free combat bonus in forests.

Fun fact, when you found a zero population city, it actually earns negative gold for its city connection. Its positive when it reaches 2 population (not that this changes your point, you are still right).

A big thing about the Iroquious is you can potentially go progress and take the science per city connections, which is really powerful with free city connections. You can settle really wide without hurting your science, potentially get swordsmen really quickly and do some damage.

How does it work if there's, say, a 1-tile gap between the forests? Can you connect it with just one Road tile and do your units still move through the entire section as if it's all Road?

God of Commerce is also a solid Pantheon if you're getting your city connections up quickly which I don't get many chances to take (really just Carthage), but Iroquois would probably rather go for Renewal for obvious reasons.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

How does it work if there's, say, a 1-tile gap between the forests? Can you connect it with just one Road tile and do your units still move through the entire section as if it's all Road?

God of Commerce is also a solid Pantheon if you're getting your city connections up quickly which I don't get many chances to take (really just Carthage), but Iroquois would probably rather go for Renewal for obvious reasons.

Yes, unfortunately you do need a minor fix for 1-tile Road and Forest [Vox Populi fixes this]. Otherwise they don't work as intended, as a full Road.

Also make note that Workers (and other Civilians) don't have Woodsman, so unless they are on a Road already, they will use 2 Movement on entering Forest/ Jungle.

 

[CrazyG]

How does it work if there's, say, a 1-tile gap between the forests? Can you connect it with just one Road tile and do your units still move through the entire section as if it's all Road?

Yes you can build a single road and use the other forests as road (Songhai also does this with rivers).

I also prefer renewal because it gives culture, but commerce isn't bad at all.

 

[pineappledan]

Yes you can build a single road and use the other forests as road (Songhai also does this with rivers).

I also prefer renewal because it gives culture, but commerce isn't bad at all.

Those 1 tile roads are where you get to plant villages

 

[chicorbeef]

Yes you can build a single road and use the other forests as road (Songhai also does this with rivers).

I also prefer renewal because it gives culture, but commerce isn't bad at all.

IIRC, I believe the forests don't count as Roads for movement purposes (there are the ignore terrain costs/Woodsman promotions for units, but no Road movement buffs).

 

[CppMaster]

Fun fact, when you found a zero population city, it actually earns negative gold for its city connection.

How can you found a zero population city? Is it even possible for a city to have 0 population?

 

[CrazyG]

How can you found a zero population city? Is it even possible for a city to have 0 population?

Whoops I meant to say 1 pop. At 1 population, a city connection is worth negative 0.2 gold.

 

[crdvis16]

I agree with the assessments here. I've always had a soft spot for Iroquois.

I'd go Progress and rapidly settle nearby forest locations leaning on the easy city connections to fight isolation happiness. I would try to hit Mohawks asap and pick a heavily forested neighbor to conquer and settle any additional forested space gained from the war.

After conquering and claiming all nearby forest/jungle I'd focus on defense and pursue either diplomacy or science victories most likely.

Tundra pantheon might also be worth considering since Iroquois sometimes end up in deer rich tundra/forest starts.