The Matrix Re-loaded spoiler/question/answer thread

[Furry Spatula]

to get a lighter tone on this board.

To those of you who have seen the new matrix movie. It certainly does leave a lot of questions as it is essentially half a movie. Lets not discuss whether we liked the movie but rather what you think will happen in the next one.

From seeing it I have been able to come up with a few things.

- First of all this is the 6th neo or "reincarnation" of him. Some people say it is only the 6th attempt destroy the matrix and the others wern't the one. However, look at the screens in the architect's room. the previous people all had the same physical appearance and vioce of this neo.

- It is impossible to tell whether the Architect was lying or not. He alluded to his perfection (or actually stated it, i cannot remember which), however he still cannot predict that which hasn't happened (IE Trinity living). The machines are AI not telepathic fortune tellers. Neo is constantly told of how his choice was already made and he needs to understand his choice. Also, we hear about all the different programs. So if neo is a program it could be that his choices were indeed made.

- THere may have been no choice what so ever, as both doors may have lead to the same ending

- The chairman of Zion (the old white man) was explaining how machines and men are both reliant on one another. If the Architect was telling the truth, then perhapse that would explain that humans are dependant on the machines to still have life as the machines do have the power to crush Zion, and the machines do depend on the humans to power the matrix.

- When Neo shows Morpheus the contradiction of the prophecy, or rather that it didn't happen Morpheus is in disbeliefe, However, in the original Matrix Morpheus told Neo that the Oracle tells you only what you need to hear. It is possible that the Oracle was in league with the architect and simply used the idea of the prophecy and the one to manipulate the people who left the matrix.

- If there is a matrix in te matrix, then that would explain why neo used his powers outside of the matrix. It wouldn't explain why he was in a comma though. In matrix 1 Neo puked when he heard the news of the matrix and passed out. Why though, didn't he go in a comma that time if he realized there was a matrix thefirst time. After seeing the matrix originally neo should be able to expect stuff like this may occure.

-Smith who takes over Bain through taking him over in the matrix. As we heard in the first matrix movie, if you die in the matrix you die in real life. So it is very possible that if you turn into smith in the matrix you turn into smith in real life. That or there is an interlayed matrix.

- Smith was a program in matrix 1. at the end of M1 when Neo jumped into him, he corrupted his program and now Smith is completly messed up. If Neo is indeed a program and is as pertinent as the Architect stated, smith may be trying to kill neo simply because he wants the matrix to end as he is corrupted, he is now very flawed according to what he was meant to do. He is no longer an Agent.

I have many other ideas that spurred from this but they did a good job with the ending of this movie. In terms of it could end in so many different ways from where they stopped it. However, i doubt there is second matrix within the matrix as that idea is simplistic and was done, in the crappy movie the 13th floor.

Oh yea, and on that dependance thing. What if there isn't a war at all and there are two matrix's, however, it turns out humans and using other humans in a matrix to power machines they use. BUt again it seems kinda simplistic and isn't directly related to the stuff brought up in M2.

Bah, i have to wait till november.

 

[nihilistic]

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
- If there is a matrix in te matrix, then that would explain why neo used his powers outside of the matrix. It wouldn't explain why he was in a comma though. In matrix 1 Neo puked when he heard the news of the matrix and passed out. Why though, didn't he go in a comma that time if he realized there was a matrix thefirst time. After seeing the matrix originally neo should be able to expect stuff like this may occure.

Maybe the architect hasn't completed the next level of the Matrix yet for Neo to fall into yet. He isn't going to kill Neo, so he put him in a coma.

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
-Smith who takes over Bain through taking him over in the matrix. As we heard in the first matrix movie, if you die in the matrix you die in real life. So it is very possible that if you turn into smith in the matrix you turn into smith in real life. That or there is an interlayed matrix.

There is no guarantee that there ever was a real person in the matrix. Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, and pretty much everyone else could all be computer programs running under one environment and then another ...

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
- Smith was a program in matrix 1. at the end of M1 when Neo jumped into him, he corrupted his program and now Smith is completly messed up. If Neo is indeed a program and is as pertinent as the Architect stated, smith may be trying to kill neo simply because he wants the matrix to end as he is corrupted, he is now very flawed according to what he was meant to do. He is no longer an Agent.

I think Smith demonstrated the true meaning of life: Survival. He was not meant to survive, but he did. His goal when he tried to "get into" Neo and Morpheus are probably attempts to better his survival rates.

 

[Mark2010]

You know i think NEO is a part machine.......Smith said they were made from the same chip and he got into the real world. Neo and Smith to me are twin brothers, half machine and half human. Neo also can do his powers in the Real world and i bet so can smith, so their both of the same chip.

 

[K-Man]

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
Smith who takes over Bain through taking him over in the matrix. As we heard in the first matrix movie, if you die in the matrix you die in real life. So it is very possible that if you turn into smith in the matrix you turn into smith in real life. That or there is an interlayed matrix.

My interpretation of this was that Smith took over Bain's mind. Since the images in the matrix are physical representations of the minds perceived image, everyone Agent Smith takes over in the matrix looks like him inside the matrix, but not outside of it. Outside the matrix the people who have been duplicated still look like their original selves because Smith can't actually change a person's appearance, but the brain is now completely corrupted and taken over by Smith. That's why Bain sabotaged the counter attack and set off the EMP too soon. He still looks like Bain, but his mind is that of Smith's, so when he is in the Matrix he will look like Smith.

 

[napoleon526]

- If there is a matrix in te matrix, then that would explain why neo used his powers outside of the matrix. It wouldn't explain why he was in a comma though. In matrix 1 Neo puked when he heard the news of the matrix and passed out. Why though, didn't he go in a comma that time if he realized there was a matrix thefirst time. After seeing the matrix originally neo should be able to expect stuff like this may occure.

I really don't think that there is a matrix inside another matrix. The real world is real but that doesn't mean Neo can't still be a part of the Architect's program. Neo was given the powers of "The One" for a reason. After Zion is destroyed, he is to restart the rebellion against the machines, so that those who will not accept the programming can be removed from the matrix and dealt with in the real world. It's actually quite a brilliant plan when you think about it. The person that the free humans think is there to save them is really the one who was created to ensure their elimination.

 

[Furry Spatula]

i was thinking that perhapse as Neo is the one and there are the religious undertones present throught the movie. Well could you even call them undertones. He may have these powers outside of the matrix for the very reason that he is the saviour of humanity. But of course, why did he end up in a comma? that remains to be seen.
If your idea is correct then Neo isn't a programme though. If he was a program he wouldn't have a body outside of the matrix, unless he pulled an agent smith, but his body outside of the matrix is just like that one inside.
But in the architects room we saw the previous people who all looked like neo did. So either there were previous neo's and neo is a program, which makes one wonder about how he can exist outside of the matrix as well and have a relativly young body. Or neo is also a program and there were no other programs and those neo's shown on the screen were just possible calculations from the "neo program" As the architect was trying to predict what would happen. Or the final possibility that the screens were just there to mislead neo and it was trickery.

But if i understand your theory they just gave the original person Thomas Anderson (aka neo) the powers of the one as part of the program, thus the architect must have been doing some lying in his room. But that is one idea I was pondering to some extent. Ugh, i realy want to see the 3rd part.

 

[napoleon526]

If your idea is correct then Neo isn't a programme though. If he was a program he wouldn't have a body outside of the matrix, unless he pulled an agent smith, but his body outside of the matrix is just like that one inside.

He's not a program like the Agents, but who says the Architect couldn't have changed Neo's brain while he was still hooked up to the matrix to make him, when the time was right, be able to control the matrix?

But in the architects room we saw the previous people who all looked like neo did. So either there were previous neo's and neo is a program, which makes one wonder about how he can exist outside of the matrix as well and have a relativly young body. Or neo is also a program and there were no other programs and those neo's shown on the screen were just possible calculations from the "neo program" As the architect was trying to predict what would happen. Or the final possibility that the screens were just there to mislead neo and it was trickery.

You mean the ones that were talking? I got the impression that the architect was reading Neo's thoughts and the TV was projecting all the things that Neo was thinking. One of them shouts "Bullsh!t" when the architect reveals the awful truth. Or were you talking about just the random images that were being shown?

But if i understand your theory they just gave the original person Thomas Anderson (aka neo) the powers of the one as part of the program, thus the architect must have been doing some lying in his room. But that is one idea I was pondering to some extent.

This is a possibility. He could have been lying to Neo to keep him from returning to the matrix for some reason. But the plot to use Neo in order to get rid of those who don't accept the matrix's program sound more plausible.

Ugh, i realy want to see the 3rd part.

That's the point!

 

[K-Man]

You mean the ones that were talking? I got the impression that the architect was reading Neo's thoughts and the TV was projecting all the things that Neo was thinking. One of them shouts "Bullsh!t" when the architect reveals the awful truth. Or were you talking about just the random images that were being shown?

That's what I was assuming they were. The screens were there to represent every possible choice Neo could make in that certain circumstance. As you watched the camera move towards one of the screens, it says distinctly what we hear our "current" Neo saying, leading us down the path of the choice he did make, and the results of that choice. Cause and Effect!!! It's all quite brilliant when you stop and think about it all.

 

[Furry Spatula]

The idea of Choice was prevalent in this movie. I wonder what they meant by neo not having a choice. Perhaps both doors lead to the same place. After all the Architect stated that people need to have the feeling that they have a choice on the sub conscious level. Well the option of giving neo two doors gave him a choice, even if there realy wasn't any choice but he wasn't aware of that. It would certainly explain why everyone said that the choices were already made for him. But then again assuming the architect was telling the truth about the previous 5 "ones" maybe they were just being cocky and didn't realy think that he would choose differently as he was based essentially based on the same thing the other 5 were. Anomallies.

I still do feel that the architect was full of BS though. I hope I'm not setting the sites too high for Revolutions.

 

[napoleon526]

One thing doesn't make sense. If Neo is really just a pawn in the Architect's plan, why do the agents, who are pretty omnicient as far as the matrix goes, always try to fight him? Don't they know that he is part of the Architect's grand design? Why don't they just let him alone to go about his business of freeing those who won't accept the program, in order to make it easier to destroy them in the future? Or are the agents and the Architect separate programs who can't communicate with each other? After all, just because the Architect created the Matrix doesn't mean that he controls it all the time.

 

[Turner]

Just saw it. . . I must say, I was as impressed by it as I was with the first one. During a couple of the fight scenes, I had to remind myself to breath. More than one 'f-word' came out of my mouth during it. . . I don't swear that much, either.

I kinda saw the Oracle as a program. I had the though, maybe six months after seeing the first one, that the only way she could see the future and predict what was to be was if she was hooked into the system, was the system. I really didn't follow up on it tho. . .

But the Oracle does bring up an interesting point. We are led to believe that the machines (hence forth, "EI"s - Electronic Intelligences) were of one mind, so to speak. Not the same consiousness, but of the same opinion. You don't really get the idea that there could be factions within the EIs. I like the thought that there are programs such as the Keymaker, which are outdated and scheduled for deletion. Brings almost a Tron-esque type feeling to it. When I thought the Oracle could be a rogue EI, it was just touching the surface, I think. Interesting to see that there are more than just one program that is going against the system. Or is there? Like the Keymaker said, "It is as it should be." So did he know about all the different matrix's. . . I think so. Having programmed myself, I know that there are programs out there to do just one thing.

So there are possibly factions inside the Matrix that are trying to survive, such as the Oracle alluded to. How far will they be willing to go to survive? Bring the system down, or stop short of that.

So, there are possibly EIs in the system that will fight the system. What else can there be? What other surprises do they have in store for us? I can't wait, either.

Can't wait until November, when it's supposed to come out here. I saw it today, and will take my older sons to see it next weekend. Hopefully more than twice on the Big Screen. I didn't see the first on until it was on VHS, now I know just how much I missed.

Was it just me, or did the humans look more gaunt and sickly outside of the matrix? I thought I saw that a couple of times, and I can see where the residual self image would have them filled out more. I also thought that there was more of a tone of Emacipation (Freeing of the slaves in the American Civil War) in this movie, where the last one had more of a messiah message to it. Morpheous' speach in Zion was incredible, and I could see it being said in the mid-1800's, when the slaves were freed. . .

Wow. . . .what a movie. It's going to take a couple of times of me watching it to assimilate it all.

Edit: @napoleon526 Perhaps they have to persue Neo to 'inspire' him to become the one. As Morpheous said in the first movie, "There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path." If he wasn't encouraged down it, it might not have served the Architects plans.

I also noticed that the humans did much better in hand to hand combat with the Agents this time. Neo's training? Or perhaps because they know an agent can be defeated? Not that it really matters, and made for better fights. . .

 

[Furry Spatula]

well If you remember from M1, Smith was telling morphues how he hates the matrix and he hates being a zoo keeper. That could explain why he wanted to stop neo from making it to the architect after, along with the fact it appears neo corrupted smith in the end of M1.

The reason the other agents may be trying to stop people is simply for the illusion of controll on neo's part. The agents are there, strong enough to give a fight but not strong enough to stop the one. Strong enough to stop other people though, just not stop the one.

Did anyone else notice the similarity in the name neo and one? or was this spoken about the time the first movie came around, as i noticed this a few weeks ago and found it rather clever.

 

[newfangle]

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED WHEN NEO ZAPPED THE CENTINEL:

He could FEEL Agent Smith in the real world (who was transferred there by the phone) and the centinel was destroyed by an EMP blast, set off by Smith. It was purely coincidental.


The Oracle is another set of control in the matrix. 1% of humans reject it. Zion exists to accept the people rejecting it. The oracle cannot tell the future, but is rather meant to guide people into doing exactly what they need to do.

 

[Furry Spatula]

it couldn't have been an Emp though. B/c the other hovercraft saved them. If there was an EMP the craft would have to have shut down all circuitry or it would have been fried. Also, why did neo suddenly collapse into a comma?

Also, the counter attack was quite a ways away i though as the radius of the EMP isn't that big, remember the sentinels threw a bomb at the neb. The only way it could have been an EMP was if the ship that saved neo and Co. shutdown emp'd then powered up and saved them. But the timing seemed a bit fast for that to happen.

 

[ETO_Peregrine]

The sentinels were most likely not EMP'ed. The thought did occur to me that Neo's display of power was simply a coincidence, but then why the coma? EMPs are not supposed to affect organic tissue in any way. Neo could not be part machine because he is shown waking up after the final EMP blast in M1. Also, consider the physics of the situation. Had the sentinels suddenly become unpowered from an EMP, they would probably continue forward and make Neo into Neo-pudding.

So that leaves the following possibilities:
-Something else both stopped the sentinels and sent Neo into a coma.
-The sentinels were destroyed by a non-EMP force and yet another "something" knocked Neo out.
-Neo actually did stop the sentinels, sending himself into a coma.

I think the third possibility is most likely given the storyline. The sentinels seemed to halt under their own power and self-destruct. Neo (or someone else?) exerted some sort of control over them.

Neo is probably plugged into the Matrix on a higher level than before since his encounter with the Architect, such that he can even affect the machines in reality. When he rescues Trinity, he shows an awesome amount of power, even compared to his "usual" abilities in the virtual world. Maybe Neo has actually become transcendent. If so, it seems like a rehash of the old love > power thing. Maybe his apparent power is just another ploy.

And perhaps this is going too far, but all this time we've been told that humans are at war with machines. Couldn't the Matrix be a human invention to insure the survival of the human race? After all, Morpheus states in M1 that the only thing known for certain is that humans blotted out the sun and made the world the way it is.

One unrelated question: why do the all-powerful machines employ rent-a-cops to guard "the source?" Wouldn't a few Agents working 24/7 be appropriate?

As a programmer, I find modern software quite boring compared to Smith and co. Agents are just bits of logic that say "if this data has been received, close that connection." Something that could point a 9mm Beretta at a 1337 haxOr would be much cooler.

 

[Turner]

The thought that there is a Matrix inside the Matrix leads to some pretty mind boggling thoughts. Yes, a la The Thirteenth Floor. (Which I rather enjoyed, it was an interesting concept. Weak ending, tho.) I would have to say, with Neo saying "Something's different." and then stopping the Sentinels, it does lead us to the conclusion that there might be a Matrix withing the Matrix.

This does kinda make sense. One thing we learned with Reloaded is that there are levels here. Like an onion, if you will, layer under layer. In the first movie, Morpheous is set up to be the end-all be-all. He knows who the One is, and it is his job to bring the One out. (@FS - Yes, the "Neo" and "One" was talked about in the first movie.) Now, I see Morpheous as more a prophet/apostle type, instead. The change was subtle, but it was there.

This kinda blows the timeline that Morpheous set up in the first movie, tho, when he said that they thought they were in the year 2199. Figure the sixth revision of the Matrix, and the fact that some of the Councillors are apparently in their 50s, 60s, and 70s, this could be as much as five to six hundred years later. Of course, Morph did say "We think."

And with Hamann talking about the humans needing the machines, and the machines needing humans. . .

The W. brothers did a great job of a cliffhanger ending. . . it's going to be tough waiting until November to see Revolutions.

 

[nihilistic]

Originally posted by ETO_Peregrine
The sentinels were most likely not EMP'ed. The thought did occur to me that Neo's display of power was simply a coincidence, but then why the coma? EMPs are not supposed to affect organic tissue in any way. Neo could not be part machine because he is shown waking up after the final EMP blast in M1. Also, consider the physics of the situation. Had the sentinels suddenly become unpowered from an EMP, they would probably continue forward and make Neo into Neo-pudding.]

Not exactly. If you believe the "real world" in M1 nad most of M2 was indeed real, then Neo and the gang are already real humans by default. However, Neo's ability to stop the sentinels in that "reality" seemed to suggest that that reality is still simulated. Otherwise, there would really be no way for Neo to "feel" Smith there or feel the sentinels. Therefore the world they all thought was real is just another level of simulation. In that level of simulation, Neo and others are all simulated as flesh and blood. Therefore, the simulated EMP blast should not hurt them. There is still nothing that can suggest if anything in the matrix world cannot "just be a program".

 

[ERIKK]

------ this is my original pre typed message ------
I saw The Matrix Reloaded yesterday! Awesome movie but with some irritating pauzes in it. It felt like running-and-standstill all the time.

But I like the ideas behind the movie. It is not just a mindless movie, it has a message in it.

I have some questions:

************ SPOILERS BELOW *******************

Agent Smith (The virus ) enters the body of a human from "the real world"... The architect tells us about his project of birth and ending of Zion (first I thought re-booting the Matrix to get rid of these "loose" programs) for the 6th time and that Neo is with him for the 6th time. Does this mean that "the real world" is in fact a Matrix too and the Neo finally knows this (by stopping the Sentinels)???? And is the Oracle in fact a part of the Matrix meaning to give Neo directions (choices) for the experiments of the architect???

I think it is... Just sum up the facts...
- Smith in Zion
- Neo stopping the Sentinels
- The loose programs problems (o.a. the Oracle) and virusses
- The explanations of the architect

So what did you conclude from the movie?
------ end of my original pre typed message ------

Now, after reading the others comments I think most of us are on the same path. But I stay on my conclusion that:
- Zion, the free humans etc etc is in a second Matrix which is used by The Architect for experiments for the analysis on the behavior on choices made by The One (or humans?). If they really are humans I do not know. If so, it would mean that there is a third layer in which the humans really excist. If not, Neo and his friends are all computer programs in the 2nd Matrix just for the experimenting purposes stated above.

Smith has all the signs of a virus IMHO!!!

 

[cgannon64]

Two questions: Why wasn't the entire human race destroyed when Neo chose to save Trinity, and why could Neo use his powers outside the Matrix?

I have no idea for the first one, but for the second, I think its either a Matrix within a Matrix, or his One powers have extended to the real world.

 

[WildFire]

I just watched the movie to enjoy it