The Nomadic Age

Deranger

Chieftain
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One major problem of the game, especially in Multiplayer, is having starting positions that in heavy cases can decide a whole game right in the first turn. Starting in the middle of a desert or surrounded by mountains almost is a death penalty for your civilization. :mad:
The game begins 4000bc, when nomadic tribes became tired of wandering around and began to settle down. I'm somewhat interested in those big migrations of the tribes, but the game handels it like your tribe must have been dull or something, ending its wandering in the middle of a desert. :confused: In fact, all those tribes migrated all over the world only to find a decent place for settling down. So no one should start at rough or barren places.
To make the game more balanced and to also include a big chapter of human evolution, i think civilization should start with something called "The nomadic age" Everyone has a settler and can travel around the map and when he finds a decent place, he tells his tribe to settle down there. To prevent excessive wanderings around the map to find the best home, the game starts when 2/3 or 50% or whatever percentage of all players has already settled, forcing those who did not so far to hurry to the best places they found. Of course some still have better locations than others, but it would prevent some big disadvantages that occur in civ3 at the start.
The age would be very short indeed, only some turns for the majority to get to a decent location, but it would add a lot more balance to the whole game and also pays tribute to the great era of the nomadic tribes. It has no fixed number of turns, only as many as 2/3 of the players need to find a place to settle. The first one has to wait for the rest and a total number of players that already settled should be shown on screen, but when finally 2/3 have settled, the game begins at 4000bc and those who have not settled so far should do so now.
 
You make some valid points, but I think that we shouldn't expell chance completely from the game. Settling was sometimes a matter of luck-or a set of conditions and events that the in-game concept of luck models.
Moving one or two tiles usually gives a more attractive settling position in cases of bad luck...and I dont see how you could bypass the "settling instinct" of the AI.IIRC the AI will settle on spot and then they will wait for the human to start the game?
Also for me a starting mis-a-location is always a challenge...
 
The nomadic age could be optional for those who like the challange ;)
Of course chance should be a part of a game, it wouldn't be abandoned. Players still have very different starting locations, only the big rifts would be levelled a bit. Nothing against a challange, but sometimes it's just impossible.
And it's not only for the players, it happens often that the ai suffers a bad location, too. I don't know why the ai should not be able to move the first settler around like they do with the ones they create later in the game.
 
how about in the nomadic age you get 1 tech to research. it has a total cost of ten gold, and you now start with 20. that tech allows settelers to settle/build a city. might run into a problem with scientific civs then getting a free tech though :hmm:
 
That's a good idea ybbor. I'm sure ther is a way to exclude this tech from the freebies and IMHO it wouldn't unbalance the game .(note to self:we need more then 20 choices in the polls or somebody better than Garbarsardar at asking questions :mischief: )
I have the same concerns as you about the AI though...
 
How about everyone gets the chance to settle within 3(?) tiles of the start spot. This would allow you to get a slightly better start spot, but still allow for remarkably bad start.
 
First of all, this is an excellent idea, a minor one that changes the game a bit, but lets it be a 'civ'-game. :top:

Warpstorm is the most balanced idea I think, although the number of the tiles has to be tested first ;) Then there is the idea with the tech to be researched: how can you do this without a city? So there has to be an auto-research, say after x-turns, you research automatically 'settling', here is the advantage that you can easily improve a trait (scientific gets the tech in y = x -n turns... :))

I like the later idea more, cause it's more historical and realistic, but Warpstorm's one is more probably and playable. Anyways, here's another idea: If you want you can stay in the nomadic age (instead of going to the next age), then you can research some techs that you cannot if you go to the 'ancient age'. These techs include 'raiding', 'riding', 'plundering' and 'conquering' (meaning killing the king and become king yourself).
The goals is now, to produce with your nomading tribes (similar to cities, but can only produce units and wander around! they are sort of walking cities) units and find and conquer the next civilized tribe (with cities etc). One of these techs ('conquering') allows you to take over a civ by doing xy (conquer the capital, etc.. ?).

As a player you can only do this in the early game. But there should be AI-barbarian-tribe-civilizations that exist a long time (like it happened for example with the franks etc.).

Negatives:
-totally new feature, radical, is this game still civ? (I think yes)
-unbalanced?

Advantages:
-Adds realism without breaking playability (you can choose the normal way...). Realism because that happened a lot (Sargon conquering Akkad, the franks, goths, vandals, anglo-saxons, even the aztecs I think (I'm not sure!), and in India, this happened all the time
-Funny break, other style of the game, a new 'refreshing' feature.
-Another option for a bad start (oh no, everything is desert, I just have to be nomadic and conquer a better kingdom)
-...?

mfG mitsho
 
sealman said:
Hey, if you want to wander, who is stopping you? Not every group of people began their "civilization" in a prime location.

No one does of course, but with every turn you settle later, you get more and more disadvantaged. The first turns are the most important ones, and i just think different starting locations have a too big impact on game balance. And also, the era of the migrations is a very important age imho cause it did a lot to shape the world like it is today.

It could be very simple, just one turn in where your settler has 4 or 6 or whatever movement points and that's it. I'm not quite sure how the idea with nomadic techs should work, but it sounds interesting.
 
Well, if you want to be absolutely picky, it could be pointed out that your tribe has been doing precisely that for many generations, and the game starts on the turn everyone settles down and builds their first town, because that's when civilization, by definition, begins.

Still, I can see your point. If you get stuck in a really bad spot, you are free to move about at will, though of course barbarians will hamper you somewhat, and you'll fall behind in research.

My main gripe with the idea is that, as a person who frequently plays on pre-made maps, I would get too fed up with civs not starting where they are placed. I remember that was a source of irritation for me in Civ II; on pre-made maps, if a particular starting location was a bad one, the AI would wander out and search for a better spot before settling down and building its capital. That always annoyed me.

Of course, that's just me. And I'm aware that my actually liking pre-made maps puts me into a very small and despised minority in the Civ-playing community. :rolleyes:

(Actually, a long time ago I came up with my own idea to counteract the bad starting location problem, and I just realized I've never posted it here for scrutiny. Rather than hijack this thread, I think I'll go start a new one. . . .)
 
We already have a quasi-Nomanic Age. That is, not placing your settler on the first turn and fishing for a better spot.
 
Come one ! I didn't see anybody tell this :

IF YOU DON'T LIKE YOUR INITIAL POSITION, START A NEW THE GAME !!! AND IF AFTER SOME EXPLORATION YOU STILL DON'T LIKE IT, ALSO RESTART UNTIL YOU FIND THE RIGHT ONE !!!!!

This is the most easy thing to do. When I don't like the initial place for my capital (because I want to settle on the first turn), I don't even build it; I start a new game. If the place is ok, I settle and get to explore. If the surroundings aren't to my taste, I also start a new game, until if find a map that matches my wants.
 
Give your very first settler three movement points, and the problem should be solved.

Or, just restart, something I never do (too often :D ).

One thing about nomadic tribes, though, it may be fun to make town nomadic if you are Arab, Mongol, or the right kind of native american.
 
this is one of the few occasion where I would say: just leave it as it is.

Even, if you are allowed to travel around for some turns before the game really starts, this won't guarantee that you have found a good position after 3 turns, or whatever.
Still, the river with cattle could be just one tile away.
And I agree, if I come up on the one plain tile inmidst of the Rockies, I just re-start the game. Nobody is forcing anyone to take the first spot (at least not in SP games).
For MP games, this could be different though, but even then the wandering features wouldn't equalize RNG's divine decision. Still one human player could come up next to a desert, while the other one finds a river, wheat, cattle and forests next to the initial starting position. Assumed, that both players are of the same quality, the game has already been decided...
 
Well, i still like the idea ;) Although i can understand other points of view. As i mentioned before, bad starting locations are mainly a multiplayer problem, as you can restart the game in single player as often as you like.
Also, in single player, i have no problem with playing a minor civ, ending up fighting a desperate fight against aggressive giants till the last man.
But it's annyoing in multiplayer if you play no real role in the game and always have to wait for other players with huge empires to finish their turns, and in the end you get eliminated and are out of the game.
If i was the one to decide, i would probably make an option at settings screen "nomadic age on/off" and give every settler 6 movement points before the game starts 4000bc in case of 'on'.
 
Exploit???? :confused:

Where the .... is this exploiting?
 
Because its not challenging, you play only the games you think they are good enough for you. This (is not wanted) and takes out the challenge/(fun?) of the game.

mfG mitsho
 
mitsho said:
Because its not challenging, you play only the games you think they are good enough for you. This (is not wanted) and takes out the challenge/(fun?) of the game.

mfG mitsho

Oh, come on... So, playing the Americans would be an exploit either, right?
Since it is just too easy, and takes out the fun. It isn't wanted, btw.. :lol:

And what about the exploit of playing below Sid-level???

What I want to express is: if you like the game to be most hard, and take whatever the RNG offers you at the beginning, this is just fine and not to be discussed. It is just your game.
But blaming others to use exploits is... well... a drastic statement
 
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