trexeric
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2011
- Messages
- 2,631
About a year ago I completed my master's degree in Medieval Norse Studies, so I decided to put my degree to use for the first time in a year by providing feedback for the Norse game.
The Norse are super fun and dynamic. You get to be a real menace, and between all the potential targets for conquest and raiding there are a lot of different directions you can take the game. It's not that hard - I suck at the game and usually play on Heir, but I managed a win on Regent without too much trouble - but I don't think it needs to be much harder (more on that later).
One thing I want to note is something which was mentioned here recently, the difference between the start dates. It baffles me how different 3000 BC (really 550 AD) and 600 AD are. I am of the opinion that 600 AD should look a lot more like 3000 BC, particularly in the starting army. Unless 600 AD is supposed to be the hard version?
UHV 1 - NORMAN CONQUESTS: Control the core of any European civilization in 1050 AD
Overall, I think this is a great goal and I would change nothing about the goal itself. That said, I have a couple of notes.
Firstly, the Celtic core overlaps with the French core, which makes it redundant to include on the potential target list. That would be different, though, if the "Celtic core" was their second core, Ireland, which would be a great, historically accurate inclusion as a potential target for Norse conquest. Ireland might be a comparatively easier target, but I don't think that's detrimental in a choose-your-own-fun type of UHV goal.
Or the goal could be bumped up to "Control the core of any two European civilizations in 1050 AD", with Ireland as an easy option to pair with a harder option.
I also take issue with the UHV goal name, but I'll make a separate comment here about my aesthetic concerns (since those are lower priority).
UHV 2 - VINLAND SAGA: Be the first to found a city in the Americas by 1100 AD
I think this is a great goal, the only one currently that has you focusing on something other than warfare (settling, culture expansion, technology) than warfare, and I think that's good for the game.
UHV 3 - DANEGELD: Acquire 3000 gold by pillaging, conquering cities and sinking ships by 1500 AD
Overall, very fun goal. My strategy of choice was to target France a bunch, they build so many towns and villages and those are lucrative targets. And of course you get some from the first UHV goal's conquest, especially if you switch to Hegemony.
I do think, right now, the goal is a bit easy. Thematically it's pretty much the main "Viking" goal, and in that capacity it could be made a bit more three dimensional. For one thing, it gives you plenty of time, and I think it would be good to push it back to 1250 AD, Sweden's spawn date and the end of the Norse civilization's representation of Scandinavia as a whole.
It also strikes me that the current array of options to acquire the gold (pillaging, conquering, and sinking ships) are all ways that the Norse built their wealth, but they don't actually represent what "Danegeld" was. Danegeld was protection money, paid to the Norse so that they would not target those paying them. In-game, this is pretty much demanding tribute, or exacting a tribute payment in exchange for peace. My first thought was to include tribute payments (meaning these) into the required goal, but I think it could go further than that.
A currently unrepresented-in-UHV aspect of Norse civilization is their prowess as traders. Their trade routes extended across Eastern Europe down to Byzantium and the Caliphates, not to mention the trading they did in Western Europe alongside their raiding and conquest. Since what I just laid out as a truer in-game representation of Danegeld would fall under the larger umbrella of "trade", perhaps a second part could be added to this goal, to acquire x amount of gold through trade. This would be similar to the Dravidian goal, so it would include lump sum trades (including tribute), gold per turn trades, gold passively acquired through trade routes, and Great Merchant trade missions. The necessity to produce a Great Merchant would be great cohesion with the Trading Post UB's merchant slot.
So, my proposed overhaul of this goal would look something like this: Acquire 3000 gold by pillaging, conquering cities and sinking ships and 3000 (?) gold by trade by 1250 AD
UP, UB, and UUs
I have no notes on these, wouldn't change a thing.
Like I said, I'll make my aesthetic notes in a second comment since those are lower priority. But I would like to bring attention to a couple more things:
1. Christianization
Catholicism spreads to Scandinavia and the AI Norse convert wayyy to early, which in part compromises their role as antagonist of Europe. It seems that, now, Catholicism spreads almost immediately and you get Christian Norse by, like, 650 AD pretty consistently. In history, there were several attempts to proselytize to the Scandinavians (Ansgar, for example, in the 9th century), but by Civ game mechanics, these missions failed, since they didn't convert any large portion of the population. Arguably Catholicism didn't successfully spread into Scandinavia until Haraldr (Bluetooth) Gormsson's conversion in the 960s.
I wonder if it would be possible to not have Scandinavia as a historical region for Catholicism until ~950, or in some other way prevent its non-missionary spread to Scandinavia until then. This would both be closer to history and foster negative relations between the Norse and the rest of Europe. A prominent reason that the Norse kings converted to Christianity in the 10th and 11th centuries was because it allowed for better relations and greater trade opportunities with the rest of Europe; they shouldn't be given this choice too early.
2. Wonders
The Norse stand out now as one of the few civilizations in this mod without a historical wonder (now that Sweden took the Nobel Prize, which lies outside the scope of the Norse game anyway). I have a couple ideas, I'd be interested to hear if anyone had had any more.
Temple at Uppsala / Gamla Uppsala - Unfortunately I can't come up with a better name, I know it's frowned upon to have a placename in a wonder name. And we don't know where the temple was located nowadays, or even how substantial it actually was, but it earned a very significant reputation, attested in varying degrees by Adam of Bremen, Saxo Grammaticus, and Snorri Sturluson. I envision this wonder as a pagan wonder requiring fur, helping militarily in some way (perhaps a free Commander promotion?) that would benefit a UHV game and a pagan URV game.
Þingvellir - Partially a natural wonder, but it's also emblematic of the unique political structure of Iceland. I think it could be great to tie it into the second UHV goal, like maybe have the effect of speeding up culture spread (over water?). It could be fun and historical to force Iceland to produce a Great Artist to make it to Greenland, to emulate the Icelandic skalds, but that might be too tough with the other UHV change necessitating a Great Merchant. This wonder would have to be super cheap (although a strategy of sending a worker to Iceland to cut down all the forests would be great flavor), maybe it would require a moorland next to the city and fur or something like that?
The Norse are super fun and dynamic. You get to be a real menace, and between all the potential targets for conquest and raiding there are a lot of different directions you can take the game. It's not that hard - I suck at the game and usually play on Heir, but I managed a win on Regent without too much trouble - but I don't think it needs to be much harder (more on that later).
One thing I want to note is something which was mentioned here recently, the difference between the start dates. It baffles me how different 3000 BC (really 550 AD) and 600 AD are. I am of the opinion that 600 AD should look a lot more like 3000 BC, particularly in the starting army. Unless 600 AD is supposed to be the hard version?
UHV 1 - NORMAN CONQUESTS: Control the core of any European civilization in 1050 AD
Overall, I think this is a great goal and I would change nothing about the goal itself. That said, I have a couple of notes.
Firstly, the Celtic core overlaps with the French core, which makes it redundant to include on the potential target list. That would be different, though, if the "Celtic core" was their second core, Ireland, which would be a great, historically accurate inclusion as a potential target for Norse conquest. Ireland might be a comparatively easier target, but I don't think that's detrimental in a choose-your-own-fun type of UHV goal.
Or the goal could be bumped up to "Control the core of any two European civilizations in 1050 AD", with Ireland as an easy option to pair with a harder option.
I also take issue with the UHV goal name, but I'll make a separate comment here about my aesthetic concerns (since those are lower priority).
UHV 2 - VINLAND SAGA: Be the first to found a city in the Americas by 1100 AD
I think this is a great goal, the only one currently that has you focusing on something other than warfare (settling, culture expansion, technology) than warfare, and I think that's good for the game.
UHV 3 - DANEGELD: Acquire 3000 gold by pillaging, conquering cities and sinking ships by 1500 AD
Overall, very fun goal. My strategy of choice was to target France a bunch, they build so many towns and villages and those are lucrative targets. And of course you get some from the first UHV goal's conquest, especially if you switch to Hegemony.
I do think, right now, the goal is a bit easy. Thematically it's pretty much the main "Viking" goal, and in that capacity it could be made a bit more three dimensional. For one thing, it gives you plenty of time, and I think it would be good to push it back to 1250 AD, Sweden's spawn date and the end of the Norse civilization's representation of Scandinavia as a whole.
It also strikes me that the current array of options to acquire the gold (pillaging, conquering, and sinking ships) are all ways that the Norse built their wealth, but they don't actually represent what "Danegeld" was. Danegeld was protection money, paid to the Norse so that they would not target those paying them. In-game, this is pretty much demanding tribute, or exacting a tribute payment in exchange for peace. My first thought was to include tribute payments (meaning these) into the required goal, but I think it could go further than that.
A currently unrepresented-in-UHV aspect of Norse civilization is their prowess as traders. Their trade routes extended across Eastern Europe down to Byzantium and the Caliphates, not to mention the trading they did in Western Europe alongside their raiding and conquest. Since what I just laid out as a truer in-game representation of Danegeld would fall under the larger umbrella of "trade", perhaps a second part could be added to this goal, to acquire x amount of gold through trade. This would be similar to the Dravidian goal, so it would include lump sum trades (including tribute), gold per turn trades, gold passively acquired through trade routes, and Great Merchant trade missions. The necessity to produce a Great Merchant would be great cohesion with the Trading Post UB's merchant slot.
So, my proposed overhaul of this goal would look something like this: Acquire 3000 gold by pillaging, conquering cities and sinking ships and 3000 (?) gold by trade by 1250 AD
UP, UB, and UUs
I have no notes on these, wouldn't change a thing.
Like I said, I'll make my aesthetic notes in a second comment since those are lower priority. But I would like to bring attention to a couple more things:
1. Christianization
Catholicism spreads to Scandinavia and the AI Norse convert wayyy to early, which in part compromises their role as antagonist of Europe. It seems that, now, Catholicism spreads almost immediately and you get Christian Norse by, like, 650 AD pretty consistently. In history, there were several attempts to proselytize to the Scandinavians (Ansgar, for example, in the 9th century), but by Civ game mechanics, these missions failed, since they didn't convert any large portion of the population. Arguably Catholicism didn't successfully spread into Scandinavia until Haraldr (Bluetooth) Gormsson's conversion in the 960s.
I wonder if it would be possible to not have Scandinavia as a historical region for Catholicism until ~950, or in some other way prevent its non-missionary spread to Scandinavia until then. This would both be closer to history and foster negative relations between the Norse and the rest of Europe. A prominent reason that the Norse kings converted to Christianity in the 10th and 11th centuries was because it allowed for better relations and greater trade opportunities with the rest of Europe; they shouldn't be given this choice too early.
2. Wonders
The Norse stand out now as one of the few civilizations in this mod without a historical wonder (now that Sweden took the Nobel Prize, which lies outside the scope of the Norse game anyway). I have a couple ideas, I'd be interested to hear if anyone had had any more.
Temple at Uppsala / Gamla Uppsala - Unfortunately I can't come up with a better name, I know it's frowned upon to have a placename in a wonder name. And we don't know where the temple was located nowadays, or even how substantial it actually was, but it earned a very significant reputation, attested in varying degrees by Adam of Bremen, Saxo Grammaticus, and Snorri Sturluson. I envision this wonder as a pagan wonder requiring fur, helping militarily in some way (perhaps a free Commander promotion?) that would benefit a UHV game and a pagan URV game.
Þingvellir - Partially a natural wonder, but it's also emblematic of the unique political structure of Iceland. I think it could be great to tie it into the second UHV goal, like maybe have the effect of speeding up culture spread (over water?). It could be fun and historical to force Iceland to produce a Great Artist to make it to Greenland, to emulate the Icelandic skalds, but that might be too tough with the other UHV change necessitating a Great Merchant. This wonder would have to be super cheap (although a strategy of sending a worker to Iceland to cut down all the forests would be great flavor), maybe it would require a moorland next to the city and fur or something like that?
