The return of the killer Phalanx

Here's a very important point: you guys are only calculating the chance for the tank to kill the phalanx, not the other way around. I'm gonna do these calculations as i type here so bear with me:

Each round, tank has a 68% [16/(7.5+16)=68] chance to take one HP off the phalanx. The phalanx, on the other hand, has a 9% [1/(1+10)=09] chance to take one HP off the tank! This means that although the tank may only has a 68% chance to damage the phalanx, the phalanx has a 9% chance to damage the tank! So, even if the tank was a conscript (btw- can you conscript for any units or only "low-tech" ones?) and the phalanx an elite, the tank would win: for every hit the phalanx scores, the tank would (according to the numbers) score 7! SEVEN!

just some thoughts (and calculations) so correct me if im wrong!
 
Shame on you all. :mad:

1. Lots of confusion about Civ 3 and RL. Remember, Civ 3 is a game. :rolleyes:

2. You're all guessing at how the calculations work. For all it's worth there could be an inherent bonus for units of more advanced ages. So...Modern Armor 4x (something) over Spearman. :p

3. Tsc, tsc...you're not trusting the Civ 3 team. :rolleyes:

4. There is ALWAYS the editor. :goodjob:
 
Originally posted by neotemujin
Here's a very important point: you guys are only calculating the chance for the tank to kill the phalanx, not the other way around. I'm gonna do these calculations as i type here so bear with me:

Each round, tank has a 68% [16/(7.5+16)=68] chance to take one HP off the phalanx. The phalanx, on the other hand, has a 9% [1/(1+10)=09] chance to take one HP off the tank! This means that although the tank may only has a 68% chance to damage the phalanx, the phalanx has a 9% chance to damage the tank! So, even if the tank was a conscript (btw- can you conscript for any units or only "low-tech" ones?) and the phalanx an elite, the tank would win: for every hit the phalanx scores, the tank would (according to the numbers) score 7! SEVEN!

just some thoughts (and calculations) so correct me if im wrong!

You're wrong. There is only one calculation per round of combat. Taking the 16 vs 7.5 figures (the game rounds one way or the other I suspect, but not knowing which, we'll leave it) means the tank has the 68% chance you mentioned, the phalanx has the other 32%. The phalanxes attack value is ONLY used when the phalanx is the attacker. So basically, the elite phalanx needs it's 32% to come up 3 times before the tank's 68% comes up 5. Eyeballing it looks like around 40-46% chance for the phalanx to kill the tank.
 
Warning: Lots of math. This also means I might have screwed up something.

Okay, I wanted to take a closer look at this, since I was getting rather confused. First off, the defensive value of a spearman is 2, not 3. A fortified spearman in a metropolis (total benefit of +150%) would have a defensive value of 5. Thus, a tank (attack value of 16) would have a 76.2% chance of winning each round. The chance of the tank winning is a relatively straightforward binomial expansion, where you're interested in all of the results that include the tank winning as many rounds as the defender has hps and losing no more rounds than one less than the attacker's hps.

Some variable definitions:

A = Chance attacker wins a round
D = Chance defender wins a round (= 1-A)
a = Attacker's number of hps
d = Defender's number of hps
nCp = Combinatorial expansion. This is the number of ways you could choose p items out of a set of n items without regard to the order. It is known to be n!/(p!(n-p)!).
X^Y = X to the power Y

If both the attacker and the defender have 3 hps, the chance the attacker wins is basically the summation of the three following items:

(# of ways attacker wins all three rounds) * D^0 * A^3
(# of ways attacker wins three out of four) * D^1 * A^3
(# of ways attacker wins three out of five) * D^2 * A^3

No combat in this case could ever go 6 rounds. The three values for the parenthetical expression at first glance seem to be 3C3 (only one way here), 4C3 (4 rounds, choose 3 A's), and 5C3 (5 rounds, choose 3 A's). However, they are not. To see this, look at the possibilities for the second case. Following a 4C3 expansion, they are: DAAA, ADAA, AADA, AAAD. However, that last case is impossible. The defender would already be dead! What we actually have to look at is to assume the attacker wins the last round (after all, that's what we're looking at; chance attacker wins) and choose the others. Thus, the second one is 3C2*1 (3 rounds, choose 2 A's, followed by an automatic A), and the third is 4C2*1 (4 rounds, choose 2 A's, followed by an automatic A). The *1s are there since there's only one way to choose a single A.

Skipping some derivation, this actually leaves us with the following binomial summation:

<pre>
a-1
Chance attacker wins = A^d * SUM ( (i+d-1)C(d-1) * D^i)
i=0
</pre>

I've attached a cleaner version as well.

This expression is summing up over the number of possible defender wins (the i=0 to a-1; the defender could win anywhere from no rounds to the attacker's hps - 1) the probability of each case. To continue the further example, we sum up the probability that the attacker wins all three combats, that the attacker wins 3 out of 4, and that the attacker wins 3 out of 5.

Returning to the issue of a regular armor attacking a fortified elite spearman in a metropolis, plugging all of this into Excel results in the Armor having a 78% chance of winning (assuming all of my Excel work is correct). He has a 25.7% chance of escaping unscathed, a 30.6% chance of winning with 2 hps remaining, and a 21.8% chance of winnign with 1 hp remaining. If you advance the armor to elite status as well, his chance of winning goes up to 96%. (BTW, a veteran tank would win 90% of the time.)

Being also somewhat of the opinion that the spearman would have no chance, I'm a little bothered, but overall it's not too bad. Guess you could chalk some of it up to the armor being overconfident...
 

Attachments

2. You're all guessing at how the calculations work. For all it's worth there could be an inherent bonus for units of more advanced ages. So...Modern Armor 4x (something) over Spearman.

3. Tsc, tsc...you're not trusting the Civ 3 team.

4. There is ALWAYS the editor.
--------------------------

No, I am not guessing. I relying on how the combat calculations work as reported on this and other websites, and the strategy guide. It is the same way they worked in CIV1, CIV2. The difference was in CIV2 modern units had more hitpoints.

For each round the ratio attackers strength (16 for a tank) is compared to the modified defense strength of the defender (7.5 for the fortified Pikeman). The attack strength of the defender is ignored. So the ratio is 16/23.5 or roughly 2/3rd. So even if both the pikeman and tank were regular units with 3 hit points the pikeman would have a good chance, but with 5 hit points it has an excellent chance.

You are right there maybe special advantage for modern weaponery that I don't know, I hope so cause really don't want to have to edit all of the units.

I do trust the Civ team to eventually get it right, but I predict there will be a patch to make it easier for modern units to kill ancient units.
 
Rob Kid

I agree with your calculations. I was having some troubles figuring out how to use the Bionomial function in Excel to eliminate the cases where the 3 hit point attacker was already killed, so I trust your calculations more than mine.

More importantly, I specified a 3 Defense factor Pikeman. It looks like there are a lot of 3 Defense factor special units and even some 4 factors like the Samurai that can be built fairly early and will still viable defenders for literally 1000s of years. If you run the calculations with a 3 factor elite unit, I think you'll agree that your tanks will no longer be able to easily wipe out a primitive societies units.

In Civ2, no pre-gunpowder unit had much of a chance against Armor unit. I'm sorry they changed it.
 
I do trust the Civ team to eventually get it right, but I predict there will be a patch to make it easier for modern units to kill ancient units.
Strange if true, because they already "fixed" this known issue when the brought out Civ II! I find it hard to believe that they took a big step back in a cruicial aspect of combat. But then, I heard Firaxis lost the bulk of their key developers at some point in the product cycle, so who knows what went out with the bathwater?! :(
 
The beauty of Excel is that it's so easy to alter the question. For two elite units, attack strength of 16, defense strength of 3, modified by +150%, the armor has a 87.6% chance of winning based on what we know at this point. A veteran armor would have a 77% chance of winning, and a regular armor would have a 60% chance of winning.

Jump to modern armor (attack 24 right?):

Regular 78%
Veteran 90%
Elite 96%

Just for kicks, modern armor against mech inf (def 20), elite vs. elite is only 13% chance. Better break out those bombers and artillery.
 
Heh. forget the Armor...send in the mathematicians!

"But guys...you can do this! You can beat them! Four percent is HUGE!"

Seriously, if bombardment with air/naval power or long range ground units is an option, I'm GOING to soften them up first with some good old fashioned shelling to, in particular, AVOID the phalanx having any realistic chance of touching my shiny expensive Modern Armor.

And if the phalanx unit happens to be winning, you can always withdraw ya know.

I say "smoke em from 2-3 spaces out, send in the Armor to clean up."
 
Can you saw math OVERLOAD:confused: :confused:

I doubt Firaxis would allow this type of nonsense back into the game

Civ I was absurd with Phalanx beats tank / BB. Fixed in Civ 2. I would be shock if it shows back up again!
 
Does this mean that the civIII screensaver wasn't a joke?:eek:
 
Originally posted by zandar
Heh. forget the Armor...send in the mathematicians!

"But guys...you can do this! You can beat them! Four percent is HUGE!"

Seriously, if bombardment with air/naval power or long range ground units is an option, I'm GOING to soften them up first with some good old fashioned shelling to, in particular, AVOID the phalanx having any realistic chance of touching my shiny expensive Modern Armor.

And if the phalanx unit happens to be winning, you can always withdraw ya know.

I say "smoke em from 2-3 spaces out, send in the Armor to clean up."

Does that tactic remind anyone of the Gulf War ? Also a more recent conflict involving putting a high tech army vs. a bunch of guerilla fortified in caves ?:nuke: :nuke:
 
Just goes to show you that truth is stranger than fiction, eh Gilligan X...:eek:
 
:eek:

After listening to all this, I think I'll stick with bombarding:rocket:,
starving the enemy of resources:mutant:, or make my allies do the dirty work for me:spank:.

Well, that cultural victory sure sounds good about now...
 
:spank:
They played this game for a year or more, do you think they would just sit there while their tanks died to phalanx. I would believe that if in their civ3 travels, their high tech units were dying to low tech units often, they would change it.

:love: I hope :love:
 
From the Civ III Infocenter (or whatever it's called)::crazyeyes
"Each combat round has a chance of inflicting a single hit-point loss on a unit, which is simply a probability based on the relative attack and defense strengths of the combatants. If a unit has an attack factor of nine and attacks a unit with a defense factor of one, it has a 90 percent chance of inflicting a hit-point loss on it during that round."


So 90% of the time this atacker hits the other unit for a one hit point loss. But when the attacker misses the other 10% of the time he automatically gets hit for a one point loss? If this is truly how Civ III will work then we are back to the old days of Civ I!:eek:

Is it possible that things are done a bit different in Civ III? Could it be that 90% of the time this attacker would inflict a one hit ppoint loss and 10% it wouldn't with that being only half the calculation for a round? Perhaps the 'defending' unit's attack factor is also compared to the 'attacking' unit's defense factor to see if the 'defender' inflicts a one hit point loss on the 'attacker'. There is really nothing in the statement above that precludes this method.

This method seems more realistic (without going into the calculations behind it :crazyeyes !) For one thing I think it significantly reduces the amount of damage an pikeman would do to a tank. For another, it open two new possibilites not encountered before: 1) neither unit in the battle loses a hit point during a round or 2) both units in the battle lose a hit point during the round. Both these possibilities have a basis in reality:

I'm not sure how often tanks have fired on pikeman throughout history but it is conceivable that the tank could miss the pikeman isn't it?

And like someone said earlier, the pikemen could get through the hatch and take over the tank, right? (Maybe in his confidence the tank commander didn't lock the hatch.:D )

Whaddya think?
 
Don't think so:

That method would make attack (tank) vs defense units (mobile infantry) meaningless, since both attack and defense attributes come into play whether you're the aggressor or the unit denfending... :rolleyes:
 
A regular tank is 16.10.2 but I don't know what the stats are for mobile (or mechanized) infantry.:confused:

Looking at calvary versus pikemen it looks as though it would take alot of calvary to dislodge a pikeman with a 150% (7.5) defense factor. Makes hoplites with their defence factor of 3 look darn tough in the ancient era. How many legions will it take to subdue the hoplites?

Of course maybe we are being too simplisic about all this. It could very well be that we are back to the old Civ I way of figuring combat outcomes but this may be balanced by other new Civ III game factors.

The armies concept may be the key to all this. While a pikeman may kill and atacking tank one on one it probably has little chance of killing any tanks if the tanks are in an army.

Anyone know how units in a city defend? Is it like in Civ II, one at a time at they perish or are multiple units in a city like those in an army? If not can an army be in a city?

I won't even have the game till Thursday. Wonder how long it will take me to get an army?:D
 
I am disappointed that people are so eager to explain away the super phalanx defender with the solution of bombardment and cruise missles.

A tank should be overwelmingly (99.99%) successfull against the bronze welders.

There should be no need to send a million dollar missle in to defeat a $20 bronze shield.

Like the rest of you I will wait to see how bad it really is... but on the plus side we can skew the attack and defend values of all the units with the editor,(if it is as horrible as it sounds).
 
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