The size of tiles

[BuckyRea]

How big are they?

I've read some place that they're squares of about 100 by 100 miles (or 160x160 kilometers. Only the F11 stat screen seems to count up one's civilization land mass by units of 100 square miles, meaning it's counting the tiles as if they're 10 by 10 miles in scale.

Of course the F11 screen also counts your cultural dominion over sea tiles as part of your civ's "land mass" the same as land tiles. Since there's not an algae-farming tech, a Sealab 2020 city improvement build, or an Aquaman unit available in any version of the game that I've played, I consider this an abomination. But I digress.

I really want to ask yall how big the tiles are supposed to be. If we go with the tiles being 100x100 miles, then the diagonal measure of the tiles should be about 141.⁴² miles, or (calculating at 1.⁶⁰⁹ klicks per mile) 227.⁵⁴⁴⁸ kilometers.

Earth's equivalent (meaning Sol 3's) equatorial circumference is 24,901.⁴⁶ miles, or 176.⁰⁸¹⁶ tiles, going by the "hundred mile tile" rule. So an Earth-sized Earth would be 176x176 tiles, so long as we can accurately assume that the Earth is a cylinder. Otherwise the value of the tiles needs to shrink the further we deviate from the horizontal middle of the Civ3 screen.

All of which goes to call into question the simple formula of 1 square tile equals 100 miles squared. Clearly it doesn't. Now, I'm no mathematician, but near as I can guesstimate, the tileage around the latitudes of the dominant geographic powers in recent history (around the Paris-Vienna parallels in Europe and around the St Lawrence River Valley in North America) would be only 80-85 miles squared (and I'm using miles here instead of kilometers not so much because the hundred-mile tile rule is easier to calculate from, but because I'm American and believe metric units to be morally suspect). In earlier historical epochs, the leading cultures were in warmer latitudes, say, around 90-95 square mile tiles. On the other hand, some of those extreme northern civs like Vikings & Russians may be real slow pokes as they move about on tiles only 60 miles across. Again, these are only rough stabs at what the tiles are actually worth, size-wise.

I could give you more accurate calculations than this if my own personal civ ever decided to research mathematics. Sadly, in my personal life I have chosen to beeline to researching magnetism under the mistaken belief that it was the prerequisite for unlocking the technology for sexual magnetism. Short version: it don't work that way. But I digress.

How big do you think tiles are? Has anyone ever figured a way to compensate for shrinking tile values in the colder latitudes by a complex system of playing with the values of unit movement and sundry specialty tiles with movement penalties along the equatorial tiles?

Your thoughts are courteously requested, as mine don't seem to be doing me much good.

 

[Hellfiredoom]

You had me at hello.

 

[Opies]

what just happened

 

[timerover51]

I guess that I view the tiles as representative areas of land, without going into excessive detail on most maps. If you are trying to represent historical earth areas, then the size of tiles matter. However, it is very difficult for any map to represent a 3 dimension spherical surface. If you really get hung up on actual miles, then you have the problem of a unit taking 50 years at times to move 100 miles. Any game board is more of an abstract representation of the earth's or any other world's surface. If you are playing a tactical games, distances may be critical, but a grand strategic game where you are developing a civilization, I will settle for a more abstract approach.

 

[GamezRule]

This might be helpful: (sorry about the size)

EDIT: I bet a cylinder map is possible. Maybe a neat mod. (I read somewhere that Civ3 has a 3D engine, it is just locked to an axis)

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . .Sadly, in my personal life I have chosen to beeline to researching magnetism under the mistaken belief that it was the prerequisite for unlocking the technology for sexual magnetism. Short version: it don't work that way. But I digress. . . . .

 

[Raliuven]

I think the place to start is to assign a movement penalty on any tundra square and any sea square that boarders on a tundra square. I can tell you that anyone that lives in Minnesota has suffered from this momvement penalty during winter - which is pretty much any month other than August.

 

[CKS]

Perhaps that has been done, by making the northern and southern tiles represent less area than the central ones. If we are mapping a sphere onto a cylinder and we want equal numbers of tiles for each ring around and we want square tiles to represent square parcels of land, the tiles must cover less area as we go away from the equator. If we draw the tiles the same size, then we'll cover less distance as we step from one tile to the next - and we have a movement penalty at northern and southern latitudes.

Raliuven, you must be enjoying global warming. When I was a kid, the (two) seasons in Minnesota were winter and the 4th of July.

 

[madviking]

In my story (see sig), I'm making each edge of a tile roughly twenty-five miles. Just seems like a reasonable distance.

 

[AsheMorgan]

I can tell you that anyone that lives in Minnesota has suffered from this momvement penalty during winter - which is pretty much any month other than August.[/QUOTE]


being from wisconsin, i totally hear that. our seasons are winter (7-9 months) and road construction.

 

[Raliuven]

Road construction is how we know the season has changed. I assume there are warmer places in the world because all those Thanksgiving turkeys must come from somewhere! Everytime someone mentions Global Warming it is safe to assume they do NOT live in Minnesota. Like glacier melt is a bad thing. I might have a yard if that happened . . .

On a more serious note - I have always been irritated that you can't use the polar caps for movement. Theoretically - and particularly with planes - they should be able to move to the top of the map and then strike over the poles. Same would go for nuclear subs firing over the poles. Basically, you could have 're-entry' anywhere in the north or south (depending on positioning) from any tile bordering the polar caps. So, if you have a carrier at the northern poles, the bombers should have range for virtually that entire strip. It would make that area of far greater strategic value then what it is now. You COULD march troops over the tundra - but those tiles should definitely have a movement penalty and maybe even a 'disease/hypothermia' effect on troops moving across the tiles.

As to the logic - the area at the equator per tile on an actual globe is greater than a tile towards the poles (vis-à-vis the equator). Each 'square' should actually be an isosceles trapezoid (all but the very ends, which are triangles (sort of). I did horrible at geometry, so I can't envision if straight edged triangles will close the tops or if you need slightly rounded lines to complete this. But for that, square tiles are insufficient. I think you need hexagons to solve the problem – I don’t tiles can solve this problem unless you arbitrarily assign movement point penalties. Even hexagons probably wouldn’t do it justice. It might be more useful to think of it as a Zocchihedron-like shape.

But all of this assumes that you are only trying to be fair vis-a-vis the Equator. The measurements as seen from the Prime Meridian would have the same argument. You would need one set of values/penalties if the unit is attempting to move N-S and one set if E-W. Ah the failings of a ‘flat’ world.

Edit - the more I think about it, since we are talking a globe, this argument holds true from every angle. If you are looking at square tiles, you would need a movement modifier for diagonal movement as well. But once you reach this point, on a flat square map, then to be fair to any given direction, distance becomes relative to your starting and ending position. On a globe, a straight line is not the shortest distance. On a flat map, the shortest distance IS a straight line. And squares of equal size no matter where you are on the map is, to my thinking, the fairest way to handle the cylinder world. Otherwise, you are just looking at distances relative to one position. Since a flat map with squares cannot be compared to a globe, this might just be an exercise in madness. You would have to pick one point and make all other squares relative to that square follow a very tricky equation that would drive a player (at least an average player) crazy. On its face, the modification would be arbitrary (IMO).

To sum up - you are trying to curve the top of the map (N-S) while leaving the sides (E-W) flat. Why try to rationalize one without the other? Is that any more accurate then what you started with?

 

[Raliuven]

Okay, sorry for the double post, but I've been thinking of how you would do this for cylinder world. If you are trying to measure the map against the earth, then to determine the vertical length (height) of each tile, you would divide 360 by the number of tiles across. I think a huge map is 180 tiles? So that is 2 degrees per tile. Each degree of latitude is about 69 miles - so that is 138 miles of latitude per tile (measured vertically). This is more or less a constant, which fits with cylinder world.

If we use 180 tiles to determine the longitude, then you can measure each tile against each degree of latitude. So all you need to do is figure out the horizontal length (width) of each degree of longitude at that degree of latitude.

For example, using the equator as a base - that is 1. At 90 degrees latitude (the last circle of latitude at cylinder world's pole, dispensing with tilt), this is measurement is 0.12. Thus, a movement point at 90 degrees latitude, moving horizontally, is worth x8 the same movement at the equator. At 60 degrees latitude, it would be .57 or almost x2.

These measurements would change depending on map size, so a tile's 'standard size' would be larger on smaller maps, if you are relating them to Earth.

This is the best I can offer. Unfortunately, my civ did not research mathematics either. However, we did reach miniaturization and the internet has proved very useful to our research methods. Now if only we can find a place to spend our wikidollars. Perhaps we should have tried for Copernicus' Observatory or Newton's University . . .