The strongest unit in the standard game

[Atahualpa]

The other day when I was playing english it struck me that the Redcoat is likely the strongest unit in the standard game (relative to their age of course).
First of all, it has the highest raw strength value (16). This is considerably more than the Grenadier (12) and slightly more then the cavalry (15). But it has a natural +25% against cavalry so that's: 20 vs 15. It also has a natural +25% against gunpowder units, widening the gap to the Grenadier even more.

The thing with the ordinary rifleman is that the Grenadier gets a +50% when fighting it. This does not apply to the redcoat and there is no disadvantage when fighting the grenadier. Thus you have a unit that kills off grenadiers, rifleman and cavalry easily.

Redcoat vs Grenadier: 20 vs 12 (67% stronger)
Redcoat vs Rifleman: 20 vs 14 (43% stronger)
Redcoat vs Cavalry: 20 vs 15 (33% stronger)

There is almost no point for the english to build Grenadiers. Cannons and redcoats are all you need. Cavalry only if you want to make some raids and distress the enemy.

Wouldn't the grenadier also need a +50% against the redcoat (the redcoat would still win [20 vs 18], but not that often anymore)? I was quite surprised to find out that this was not the case in the latest patch.

Please excuse if this was brought up already, I didn't check before.

 

[BadHorsie]

Maybe it's been brought up before, so you're being ignored, or it could be that everyone agrees with you.

I don't disagree with you.

 

[JoeM]

As a straight comparison perhaps, but given that most of your fighting will be in cities, the units you refer to will have considerable defensive bonuses.

 

[Atahualpa]

Well, I don't think their bonus will help so much.

Take a standard redcoat attacker with 2 promotions: combat I + rifle (all in all +60% against gunpowder).
Now take a city with a grenadier with city defender I+II, fortified for maximum defense (+70% against the redcoat) and a rifleman with city defender I+II, fortified for maximum defense (+70% against the redcoat):
It's 25.6 vs 20.4 against the grenadier
and 25.6 vs 23.8 against the rifleman

All you have to do is take down any defensive cultural city bonuses and the city is yours. You don't really need to attack with cannons beforehand or much fewer than any other nation.

Every other nation would need to bring down defensive cultural city bonus as well as lose several cannons in the attack, because the standard rifleman with combat I + rifle would have only a lousy 18.9 mod strength, against the grenadier's 25.2. You'll need a pretty lucky roll to win that.

 

[JoeM]

True, but in the early game the Axeman has a much greater raw advantage over Archers wouldn't you say?

I guess it depends on what your criteria for comparison are. Are you talking about comparable units within a given age, or at a particular stage of the game?

 

[Atahualpa]

Your probably right that it doesn't really make sense to elect a strongest unit of the game.

But I still feel that the redcoat for its age is an exceptionally strong unit. Grenadiers won't stop him for sure. Knights and Cavalry are also helpless against him and the rifleman needs a lot of effort to beat the +2 extra raw strength and the natural +25% bonus against gunpowder. And therefor it would still be a formidable defender against infantry.
I have not yet seen a unit this powerful.

The thing with the Axeman is that it's available to everyone, so you'll be fighting against other Axemen (nullifying their advantages), as well as I find the Swordsman more effective when it comes to attacking cities (those fortified by Archers).
The Redcoat OTOH is the best unit against Grenadiers, the best unit against Riflemen and the best unit against Cavalry, so it beats all other units in its age and below. There are only few units where you can say the same. There are some though:
1. Preatorian
though it's a closer call since it is 8 vs 7.5 against the Axeman and therefor just 6% advantage which is probably compensated by the 14% cheaper cost of the Axeman
2. German Panzer (though it's not protected by defensive bonuses and the raw strength difference is not that great, OTOH it's not so easy for others to get the Armor promotion)
3. Infantry
however it's a unit that everyone has
edit: umm forget about that, by the time you've got infantry, you'll probably have Machine guns already..

 

[MisterBarca]

Your probably right that it doesn't really make sense to elect a strongest unit of the game.

But I still feel that the redcoat for its age is an exceptionally strong unit. Grenadiers won't stop him for sure. Knights and Cavalry are also helpless against him and the rifleman needs a lot of effort to beat the +2 extra raw strength and the natural +25% bonus against gunpowder. And therefor it would still be a formidable defender against infantry.
I have not yet seen a unit this powerful.

The thing with the Axeman is that it's available to everyone, so you'll be fighting against other Axemen (nullifying their advantages), as well as I find the Swordsman more effective when it comes to attacking cities (those fortified by Archers).
The Redcoat OTOH is the best unit against Grenadiers, the best unit against Riflemen and the best unit against Cavalry, so it beats all other units in its age and below. There are only few units where you can say the same. There are some though:
1. Preatorian
though it's a closer call since it is 8 vs 7.5 against the Axeman and therefor just 6% advantage which is probably compensated by the 14% cheaper cost of the Axeman
2. German Panzer (though it's not protected by defensive bonuses and the raw strength difference is not that great, OTOH it's not so easy for others to get the Armor promotion)
3. Infantry
however it's a unit that everyone has
edit: umm forget about that, by the time you've got infantry, you'll probably have Machine guns already..

Although Redcoats (barely) beat Cossacks head-to-head, I feel Cossacks are the strongest units in the game from experience. You can get to Cossacks earlier, and Cossacks are generally stronger in non-head-to-head situations.

 

[Danicela]

Grenadier doesn't have +50% vs Riflemen so vs Redcoat too ?

 

[gunkulator]

True, but in the early game the Axeman has a much greater raw advantage over Archers wouldn't you say?

This is often repeated but it is not always true since axes typically fight archers in cities. Rarely do your axes fight archers outside of cities. Using unpromoted units and ignoring cultural defense, you have:

Axeman: str = 5

vs.

Archer: str = 5.25 (3 + 50% organic city defense + 25% fortified)

and the archer gets a first strike.

City Raider I reduces the archer to 4.65. City Raider I+II lowers it to 3.9 however this is harder to obtain unless you get lucky with barb hunting. If you wait too long to get CRII units, you risk AI cities getting larger meaning higher culture defense, more defenders and more chances for the AI to produce archers with City Garrison promotions.

The power of the axe rush is not in the strength numbers so much as the tactical advantage of concentrating, say, five axes against an early AI city that won't have more than two defenders and little to no cultural defense. Sometimes you get lucky and there will be one archer and one spearman instead of two archers.

 

[binhthuy71]

I'd give the edge to the Cossack over the Redcoat. With two movement points a stack or two of Cossacks can decimate enemy infrastructure (Mmmmm, plunder!), pin him down inside his cities (AI counterattacks are generally somewhere between weak and silly) and be largely healed by the time your siege weapons catch up to them.

 

[El Koeno]

Grenadier doesn't have +50% vs Riflemen so vs Redcoat too ?

I think I remember reading the bonus grenadiers have against riflemen are given only when the grenadier attacks. I think a counter-attacking grenadier might get the bonus against redcoats. So the numbers given by the OP are correct, but the grenadier still gets an advantage against stack consisting solely of redcoats. I'm totally not sure about this, so please correct if I'm wrong.

 

[Kalleyao]

Uhmm... the stongest unit is Modern Armor...

 

[ichiro51]

icbm beats modern armor any day

 

[Atahualpa]

The Cossack is sweet indeed!

Grenadier doesn't have +50% vs Riflemen so vs Redcoat too ?

Nope!

I think I remember reading the bonus grenadiers have against riflemen are given only when the grenadier attacks. I think a counter-attacking grenadier might get the bonus against redcoats. So the numbers given by the OP are correct, but the grenadier still gets an advantage against stack consisting solely of redcoats. I'm totally not sure about this, so please correct if I'm wrong.

I have not experienced any of this. The Grenadier is a total loser when fighting Redcoats. No bonus whatsoever.

 

[Armorydave]

Quecha, Cossak, Redcoat and Prat's in that order. If you use Quecha's right (to perpetually disrupt enemy copper mines & horse pastures and zerg enemy cities) you will have the dominant unit for the first couple thousand years of the game. They are incredibly powerful against archers (the most common unit of the early era) and ridiculously cheap to build (a factor many people don't take into account when assessing the "overall power" of a unit type). Part of the reason for their overpowered nature is that the AI never builds warriors, opting for archers even when you are overrunning them with Quechas.

If I haven't defeated my two nearest neighbors before the Iron Age I consider it a bad start for the Maya. I won't play the Maya on a Pangea, Continent or Fractal anymore (at Monarch level) because the advantage is so overwhelming. Next time I try the step up to Emporer it will be the Maya on a Pangea.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

No the Grenadier get the Bonus when fighting Redcoaats so Odds are RedCoats Defending v.
Rifleman [+25%]
20 v.14
Grenadier [+25v Gunpowder -50% v Riflemen=-25% for Redcoat]
13.2 v. 12
Cavalry [+25%]
20 v. 15



Compare to a Pratorian defending
Axe [-50% v. Melee]
5.33 v. 5
Horse/Sword/Longbow
8 v. 6
Archer
8 v. 3


The Pratorian also beats everything including its counter (barely like the Rerdcoat does) and the Praetorian can get City Attack.

Now if a Redcoat is Attacking it has a massive advantage over all units of its era, but it can't get attack upgrades... so a Stack of Grenadiers, some lost, others counter attack can take the Redcoats down, even if they are attacking.

 

[binhthuy71]

Quecha, Cossak, Redcoat and Prat's in that order. If you use Quecha's right (to perpetually disrupt enemy copper mines & horse pastures and zerg enemy cities) you will have the dominant unit for the first couple thousand years of the game. They are incredibly powerful against archers (the most common unit of the early era) and ridiculously cheap to build (a factor many people don't take into account when assessing the "overall power" of a unit type). Part of the reason for their overpowered nature is that the AI never builds warriors, opting for archers even when you are overrunning them with Quechas.

If I haven't defeated my two nearest neighbors before the Iron Age I consider it a bad start for the Maya. I won't play the Maya on a Pangea, Continent or Fractal anymore (at Monarch level) because the advantage is so overwhelming. Next time I try the step up to Emporer it will be the Maya on a Pangea.

Thanks for the insight. I usually play Random leaders but I'm going to try Maya and a Quecha rush.

 

[drkodos]

Stealth Bombers are a bit overpowered.

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

Cho Ku No. Collateral damage is amazingly effective. Plus, they're crossbows, so they get +50% vs. melee units. Cho Ku No shred everything in their era and can harm more than one unit.

 

[gunkulator]

Not a big fan of CKNs. They do less collateral damage than cats but cost more and can't get barrage or city raider promotions. Instead they get city garrison promotions. Against cities, CKNs lose to cheaper Longbows.

CKNs are matched in strength by Horse Archers. HAs are cheaper, ignore first strikes, come earlier in the tech tree and worst of all, the AI loves them. Just one more tech beyond Machinery (for CKNs) is Guilds which gives Knights that easily defeat CKNs.

If the AI has no horses and hasn't reached Lonbows yet, CKNs can rock. You need the Oracle to slingshot to Metal Casting and then tough out the long wait to Machinery. You'll need forges to afford CKNs, however both forges and the Oracle can be built in a reasonable timeframe for China since it is industrious.