The Survival Challenge

[Ecofarm]

While I am still working on my latest Immortal Playnow Challenge, I think it might be nice to start another tradition...

The Survival Challenge.

So, what are the Rules?

1) I didn't invent this, so I dunno.
2) I suppose we can start with the setting of the recent thread of similar name.
3) I think Sureshot coined the phrase, so I hope he will offer to help set some parameters.
4) I think small size is better (is survival not officially [# of AI = # of players +1]) and I prefer quick speed.

I will save a svart start and try to win under 'survival' settings (as per the aforementioned thread and #4 above, to start).

Ladies and gentlemen, post

your saves.

ps. Has anyone ever won on these settings? And is that one winnable?

Don't forget.. What did you get from huts?

Spoiler :

Are we defeating the purpose by trying to win just one in 100? I mean, really, if you do this in MP, it's survival. But in SP (or after everyone else has died)... once in a blue moon... you just might win one That's how I like to see it, anyway. MP 'survival' games might be saved and try to win later when you are the last (so it can be launched by a single player) instead of trashing it. Post it, perhaps we can win. Other times a game is an unwinnable hole from which only # of turns until death emerges, that's fine too. I think small size (# of AI = # of players +1) and normal or quick speed are winnable (on the settings of the previous thread). Have at it.

 

[Sureshot]

First off, check out my avatar and title for all your gender identification needs heh, but about survival:

True Survival is:
#AIs = #Players+1
One of the AIs must have Barb trait
All AIs are teamed, players are not.
Raging Barbarians
Always War
One City Challenge
AI No Building Requirements
Require Complete Kills
Deity
Quick
No Saving or Reloading
No Advanced Start
No Victory Conditions
A map type that is one landmass, preferably Great Plains, Lakes or Inland Sea with cylindrical wrapping (I have a map called Rivers that is wrapped both ways and have no body of water, which is ideal for fair Survival).
Players may not enter other players lands or attack them.

In Multiplayer the way to win is just to be last to die, since generally everyone dies. In single player its not quite as difficult since you'd be only facing 2 AIs (in multiplayer after everyone else is dead you'll be facing 3+), so it might be wise to do 3 AIs in a singleplayer game just to make it more comparable to multiplayer.

There are 3 problems in Survival that tend to come up that require solutions if you intend to stay alive:
Problem 1 The Rush: Overwhelming numbers early.
Problem 2 Catastacks: Stacks of catapults supported with other tier 2 units can usually cut through most defenses.
Problem 3 Catastacks+Assassins: Assassins come in to clean out weakened units and empty out your city, plus they have first strike immunity so the typical units used to beat problem 2 (archers with drill4) tend to become much less effective and die.

The typical ways of beating Problem 1 are superior defenses, usually by building on a hill and promoting Guerilla right off, or using rivers and mountains/water to your advantage; the other way is Blocking, where the AIs have no path to reach your that doesn't have to go through your units (the AIs will go after other players who have no such blocking first usually). Both are good strategies, though Blocking tends to yield less experience and would not likely help much in single player, and there are problems with it sometimes (plus it wont last if they get Drown or Rangers before you if the blocking is contingent on mountains or water).

Problem 2 is usually solved with Archers if you use a hill city, by promotiing drill4 and guerilla a single archer can usually hold back an entire stack of catapults and more. Blocking is like prevention, and if the AI is staying away you could be okay here too.

Problem 3 has no good counter usually, there are many good theories (Royal Guards or Bannor Axemen) that could work but usually fall short. The only good solution to this tends to be kill the AIs before they get to Assassins.


Survival is one of the main game types we played back in the first days of Multiplayer FfH2 heh, most commonly played by Me, Jono, and Lord Vermillion. Another fun Multiplayer FfH2 challenge is Orthus Axe, where all players are at war with whoever has Orthus Axe, and the goal is to keep Orthus' Axe for 100 turns.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Another fun Multiplayer FfH2 challenge is Orthus Axe, where all players are at war with whoever has Orthus Axe, and the goal is to keep Orthus' Axe for 100 turns.

That's *awesome*.

I wish I had more civ-fan friends now :*(.

 

[KillerClowns]

That's *awesome*.

I wish I had more civ-fan friends now :*(.

Agreed.
Although you might want to turn off the Council of Esus for that game...

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

If it's multiplayer you can figure out who is Esus and not open borders with them. I imagine it's mostly brute force, not stealing. Build up twenty or thirty warriors and kill the Axe Holder while you research BW or Archery, and defend the Axe.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, but they don't have to be Esus civs to take advantage of the Nox Noctis, or shadows. Invisibility probably matters more than HN in multiplayer games.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Ecofarm: Here is a Survival Victory (singleplayer) for you.

Version 0.32 h new civ-patch
Turn 182 (quick) conquest.
Score some 33thousand.

Specs:

Sidar
Deity
Quick
Small, Highlands, Cylindrical wrap, Few Peaks, Scattered, small lakes
Chardaron, Sheelba, Jonas Erdain all teamed up (lost 5 or 6 trials on other maps for not getting enough early warriors or not even instant-fortifying my starting-warrior in another 2. Oh those AIs Swarm like made at Turn 10 after doublecast of for the horde). Hyborem was summoned by AI later that game but didn't care to settle so he was easy fodder for my Shadows.


Here is the other Options i used in comparison to sureshots outline:

3 AI Players as required / So #players +2 as reccomended for singleplayer by sureshot
Raging Barbarians
Always War
One City Challenge
AI No Building Requirements
(Require Complete Kills <--- Missed that one since i didn't remember it. Given with that option it whould have lasted perhaps 20-30 Turns longer. Hope that doesn't violate the spirit of the challenge to much. Won i whould have anyways for sure. Just later for hunting some stray workers)
No Saving or Reloading <--- The only one reload was for continuing the session since otherwise the game whould have lasted to long for one day of play. Which also nicely doubles as the midgame overview closely before AI-Bashing began / shortly after Chalid was built. So i consider that one fulfilled.
No Advanced Start
(No Victory Conditions <--- checked conquest since i din't want to play an eternity just in the unlikely case the game whould go my way.
Which it did. Other things were off...)

Blessings of Armatheon and Living World in addition according to the other thread.

Had very much luck with the chosen site of my city for the start. (had copper underneath which made more than up for the otherwise scarce resources around)

Its sick what Sidar can do if you get enough fodder for shades. Outteched all 3 AI (Tier 3 + Low Tier 4 vs. Tier 2 is not an even battle, no matter what difficulty... But had no strategic resources save copper and later Iron from the Mines of Gal-Dur for National Units and no Nodes as well so had to cope without nationals requiring strategic resources) and founded 6 of the 7 Religions (all exept Veil which i could have gained first as well if i whould have really wanted but im sure the Riots whould have been more trouble than it whould have been worth) also built a nice assortment of Wonders and got all Free Greath People available from getting to techs first. (Build Deis Dei and Nox Nocturnis. Especially the last helps alot at this challenge. Before messing with workers seems rather moot. Thats why in the Midgamesave around Turn 120 i didn't have a worker. Built my 1 worker shortly after.)

If i remember rightly i had only got Gold / Map from the 2 or 3 Huts i got no techs. But remembering that one is rather hard.

The finish-save is right the turn you can finish off Jonas with one of some units with comando by wiping out his last city-defender. Conquest-Victory is won the turn after.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Yeah, I was thinking Sidar might turn the disadvantage into an advantage.

 

[KillerClowns]

I was referring specifically to the Hold Orthus' Axe for 100 turns game when I said to turn CoE off... I was thinking get axe, build Nox Noctis, keep axe holder outside of city...
You'd technically win, but be lynched.

 

[slowcar]

nice catch blackmantle. i am pretty sure nox nocturnis helps a lot to have some units walking around unharmed. while having tech leadership makes the whole game a lot easier.

 

[Sureshot]

impresssive win, sidar is def the fav pick for survival (so much XP ), especially since if you get destroyed you can outlive everyone with a single invisible unit roaming around heh (much the same as with drown on a lake or a ranger on a mountain, tho eventually the ai finds a way to kill them all if you dont kill them first heh)

for extra difficulty do random leaders/civs (with only 1 barb trait leader), since otherwise you're easily granted for free all good religions (evil ais wont research them) and the great library (barb civs cant build them or libraries), plus its easier to counter just doviello and orcs.. it gets scarier when trebuchets are coming at you, or tasunkes horse army, or other unexpected powerhouses (random elohim monks used to scare the hell out of me heh)

other fun ways to win are sheaim (raise the AC, the AIs will eventually declare war on the barbs, at some point they want to take acherons city in every game, and you can usually avoid most problems yourself while they get wrecked; one of my first survival wins was with them heh), and lanun (a properly placed pirate cove can make you an island right off, then you can tech nicely with a lot of commerce from water plus specialists from all the food). ive found ljosalfar can win nicely just using archers and gilden, and khazad can win brute force from tons of production (ive seen morganknight and grey fox go around wrecking ais with stacks of catapults and assassins on survival), and svartalfar is fun using a horde of assassins and alaz.

 

[Blackmantle]

Yea, i did this mainly because of the outline of the other thread which ecofarm linked / refered to and mainly oriented on that one. (where requiring complete kills whould have been a no-go because then you could just put a party on a ship and survive that way.)

Also realized fastly around Turn 50 when tech really got rolling that playing to the settings / oponents whould help alot (aimed for the religions available for evil civs early to deny them acess in addition to the other benefits.) So from Turn 60 on i was actively playing for winning with some mean tricks aimed at the competition.

But when Marnok is fast with updating his modmod i probably wont try this again anytime soon (though it whould be perhaps even more "fun" with Marnoks Mod Then its not Trebuchets and Horsemen but Minotaurs, Stoneskin Ogres, Wraiths and Elementals around Turn 50 quick . There even Sidar might not cut it, no matter how lucky they get. )

Its fun as a filler but not so much if done in singleplayer constantly i reckon (unlike for Multiplayer).
But in the end it did feel like an accomplishment as oposed to other wins (especially if those are achived with reloading which i still do most games).



PS: For multiplayer "capture the axe" Sidar should perhaps be banned as well in addition to Esus. Into the Mist seems a little unfair then as well, not only Shadows + Nox Nocturnis + Ghosts are not so very much late either plus work even better than their Worldspell.

PS: Normal Rangers and Beastmasters can't move impassable anymore i belive. But with your settings subduing a Griffon and putting him on a peak might work as well to stay alive. (regardless of civ played until AI gets Druids if it is capable of that at all thanks to neutral alignment or until Basium is Summoned and promotes Angels to his beastmaster UUs which can still move impassable / or some flying units to go on hunt for your Griffon.)

I for one whould rather advise against requiring complete kills for the survival-Challenge (single player as well as Multiplayer) on some afterthought. Has to many mean tricks attatched to it (and should you win it just delays the whole thing uncessecarily without any realy gain for the flow of play or for tactics). Nice for exploring the possibilities and learning strats from your competitors in multiplayer though.
Oh and Bals should have survival guaranteed thanks to loki...

 

[Sureshot]

thing is, you learn how anything can be killed with enough brute force problem solving from the AI (or more intelligent problem solving with a group of human players in orthus axe games).. eventually theyll be fire balling the drown on the lake, or using their own mountain climbers, or dispelling invisibilities (either through spells or filling up the entire map with their borders and having the Empy HC wonder), or using their own boats to kill yours. sometimes youll have an "invincible" unit killed by a random tsunami or event.

loki seems to die a lot im finding, tho im not exactly sure how it happens.

we've played a lot of survivals over a lot of versions, and i find anything is legal, because everything is fallible heh, part of the fun is finding tactics that can extend your time tho (which is why i dont limit it to only city defending, which is what youd get if require complete kills wasnt on)

marnoks mod is a fun time, a stoneskin ogre coming at you when all youve got is warriors teaches you about effecting swarming

 

[Blackmantle]

I can see how it could be fun in multiplayer but i belive Ecofarm looks for a balanced challenge / comparability and singleplayer as well (lots of games / trials for him to look at and learn from) so for his Challenge i whouldn't reccomend it due to it completely breaking comparability. (Can very well understand what you are aming at though. )

Fair grounds has its appeal and sense (even though i for one like you don't favor it if compared to raw fun.
But thats not everyones cup of tea.).

As for Loki: Sitting in / retreating to cities and attacking units having first strikes it seems. Not sure about that beeing all though or if there are other ways. But AI doesn't seem to like drill (which is not the worst way to handle promotions btw.) and there are few units that start with drill. So i don't see Loki die if i control him.



Yea and it really teaches you how cool it is to dominate units early and whack "poor" Monsters + AI with Drill 4, Blitz, Combat 4, Commando Stoneskin Ogres (leveling fast beyond from that point on!). Also makes using Archers and going on the defensive alot more viable.

 

[smusebaer]

Ok that was a close one. I played Kazzard. Enemy jonas of the orks sheelbar of the ork and perpentach. My start was lucky with a gold mine. researched mining first... got copper on another hill. Fought hart, produced even harder and the dwarfs mached south to the Perpentach. city after city was raised, but even the best dwarfs (Axeman) died. I found ortus, sacrifised my worker, and took his axe. Perpentachs citys where raised, just one man escaped (guess who).
After that I defeeded some realy bad stacks of Wolfriders and catapults. And took the war to the orks... First I gathered a realy big stack of Axeman and burned a few citys of Jonas when sheelbar put the dagger into my back. My 7 axeman where whiped away buy a big stack with caterpults and wolfriders, and my capital was lost. But i wasn´t defeeted yet. With the hope of conquering a city (to have one city again) i pushed on jonas. Lost artus axe... made a final attack and took the citys, with just a few axmans left... but the city was raised. and only 4 left... i marched on... and destroy city after city of jonas, until all of his citys where gone.But one man got ill... Then I got back to my city. with just a small hope I tryed to take it back... and lost no dwarf... but again... raised... so I attacked sheelbar. I killed quiet a lot of chariots, and fought my last stand. That game was fun!

 

[Zechnophobe]

Won a conquest victory with a normal speed game on turn 210.

Which civ? You guessed it, the Sidar. Had Champions about turn 175, with Iron, and I just started mopping everything up. Still took a dang long time to finish because of the sheer number of baddies. Stayed in godking most of the game.

I was actually somewhat lucky because the Clan (Jonas) were right next to me. And because they were less aggressive than the barbarians, that side of my empire could be worked without barbarians razing the plots. THree flood plains, and 3 Gold squares!

 

[slowcar]

resurrecting the thread to report a conquest victory with tasunke, turn 161.
small highlands.
i researched 5 techs until the end (exploration, hunting, bows, mystic, crafting).
had an exploration army of 3 * 4 warriors, 5 survived in the end.
it was a bit close in the end without city raider but it was manageable.

in opposition to the sidar there is no research at all when playing with a different leader, you have to conquer the world with warriors unless you can hold the surroundings of your city to build improvements

 

[Demus]

odd tech choise... with tasunke i would have beelined horseback riding, using horsemen instead of warriors later on. Thanks to their high movement, you can attack approaching armies, then withdraw within your city without fear of counterattacks (undoable with slower units)

 

[slowcar]

odd tech choise... with tasunke i would have beelined horseback riding, using horsemen instead of warriors later on.

the big backdraw with mounted units (and divine etc) is that they can not learn the second level of shock etc, and especially no city raider and march.
with only one city, and without all the sidar superspecialists, you have a hard time to supply even a few spare units. you need at least 3-4 high-trained warriors to take care of your city as there are lots of skeletons etc attacking.

the enemy has a massive amount of numbers, all you can do is get some elite.


it was my first survival game with tasunke, tried to play with the sidar before (and won only very few). it is nearly the same as a normal civ game, you don't have to look for the xp though, they all come to you.

while i appreciate the mounted units my core force consists of elite axes in normal games, assisted by a bunch of mobility2+drill4+blitz chariots/rhatas (super synergy with chalid).
short of a bunch of pyrozombies there is not much that can beat an axeman with the relevant promotions - with formation2 they easily fend of any mounted attack.