The thunder of guns (or why I hate artillery)

[Vulcans]

Which path do people prefer? when mopping up a late domination victory with a slight tec lead?

-rifling,
-scientific method,
-physics(+GS hoperfully),
-Artillery, (Boom)
-Rocketry(nice to use sam on those enemy riflemen)

or

-steam power,
-assembly line, (infantry Vs enemy riflemen), main attack with infantry
-fascism (if WW is a problem)
-SM, Phys, Elec, Industrialisation(although infantry should do the job so could stop after AL).


what about skipping on RR? if going down the artilery path do people bother with RR? getting steam power and RR is a divergent from going for artilery, so you can get artilery sooner without going for RR, then rocketry for SAM instead of using MG (sam can also attack the enemy riflemen), and then later go back for RR purelly for the mobility factor.

 

[cabert]

I go for combustion and railroad, then flight and radio
bombers FTW

 

[Vulcans]

I go for combustion and railroad, then flight and radio
bombers FTW

Is that combustion and railroad after artillery?

Once you hit artillery and the AI only has riflemen, then you have all the tec you need to finish the mopup. flight is a bit of an overkill for riflemen.
even without the possibility of machine guns, artillery will walk over those riflemen.

Similary if you totally forget about artillery and MG, once you have infantry against those riflemen then the game is all over.

The question is what would you prefer to use, artillery OR infantry against all the riflemen/cavalry/cannons for a mopup?

Research cost:
2400 rifling
2400 scientific method,
4000 physics
4000 Artillery
= 10800
Or
2400 rifling
3200 steam power
5000 assembly line
=10600


Now if you want to chuck in MG defenders with your artillery or infantry then it’ll cost an extra 7200 for artillery path and 4500 for the assembly line path, which I don’t think is that necessary to have MG for defense if you are simply mopping up riflemen as fast as possible, so the main advantage would be the mobility of the RR to get re-inforcements to the front line sooner.


Edit: included rifling in infantry research path.

 

[cabert]

artillery? who needs artillery?
If I can't kill them with canons in 1500 AD, I certainly won't be able to kill them with artillery in 1700 AD.
Bombers do a lot better than artilleries.

by the way, you need rifling to build infantry

 

[Vulcans]

artillery? who needs artillery?
If I can't kill them with canons in 1500 AD, I certainly won't be able to kill them with artillery in 1700 AD.

Unless your cannons were occupied marching through 7 other AI in the 1500s.
AI are a sinch to beat, it just takes time to march the huge world.

artillery? who needs artillery?
Bombers do a lot better than artilleries.

Are you joking??
Normally your posts have made sense, but this doesn’t

Research path for bombers from after replaceable parts
3200 Steam power
4500 Railroad
3600 Combustion
2400 Scientific method
4000 Physics
5000 Flight
4500 Electricity
6000 Radio
=33200 beakers!!!!!

That’s more then 3 times the research of artillery/infantry, that’d take much longer for the mopup.

And when your bombers eventually come in, what will you finish them off with? Machine guns can’t attack, so you still have to rely on your old cavalry/grenadiers/cannons with the bombers flying over head?
LOL

 

[cabert]

Unless your cannons were occupied marching through 7 other AI in the 1500s.
AI are a sinch to beat, it just takes time to march the huge world.



Are you joking??
Normally your posts have made sense, but this doesn’t

Research path for bombers from after replaceable parts
3200 Steam power
4500 Railroad
3600 Combustion
2400 Scientific method
4000 Physics
5000 Flight
4500 Electricity
6000 Radio
=33200 beakers!!!!!

That’s more then 3 times the research of artillery/infantry, that’d take much longer for the mopup.

And when your bombers eventually come in, what will you finish them off with? Machine guns can’t attack, so you still have to rely on your old cavalry/grenadiers/cannons with the bombers flying over head?LOL

I remember very well a game where I reached domination using :
- redcoats
- cannons
- bombers.
It certainly isn't the best path for military, but I found it's very hard to fight in artillery times without either overwhelming numbers or air support.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

ok, given the huge disparity in forces, it'll take a while, but:

till now, lost 7 gunships(5 were tryin' to protect the aztecs, but apparently I gave them too much of a beating previously and the teritory was too large and too far away to be properly pillaged) vs ~ 10 tanks, 15 cavs., ~10 infantry, ~10 arti and the odd 1-2 sam infantry(with pinch, your choppers still have ~70% chances, so...).

Patience + pillage ftw; after that, small stacks as bait for his artilerly(he still has 47, so... as I said, will take a while

 

[Vulcans]

cabert: I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding
Maybe you don’t quite understand the question/scenario I’m talking about (if you read my posts i'm talking about a slightly different sittuation then snowley).

If I can't kill them with canons in 1500 AD, I certainly won't be able to kill them with artillery in 1700 AD.

This is in 1500 AD that I’m talking about. On higher difficulties the Tec speed is faster, and the AI reaches riflemen around that time.
As soon as riflemen are reached then cavalry are useless.

Yes, I can use my own riflemen on their riflemen, and use my vast empire to crush anyone. But this is a 50-50 fight.

Hence I don’t see the point in stopping research after cavalry/cannons. So that when the AI get’s riflemen you have one better.

It certainly isn't the best path for military, but I found it's very hard to fight in artillery times without either overwhelming numbers or air support.

This isn’t “artillery times” the AI doesn’t have artillery. They only have riflemen. With a Tec lead you can research artillery OR infantry for that edge to speed up the mop-up game against their artillery.

IF you wait for bombers it will be “artillery times” as bombers are 33K research compared to 10K research of artillery so you will be facing artillery. So why wait for bombers??

In the time window before the AI have artillery, it is possible to make use of infantry OR artillery to slice through the stacks of riflemen instead of simply out producing them and creating larger stacks of riflemen.

This is not a question of waiting for technology, you fight the whole time, but technology still comes along while you fight, so you might as well make use of it and always try to get one level better units then the opponent for faster attacking.

With lots of AI on a large map it takes significant time to kill them all, and during that time the ones you are not killing will always advance, so you need to constantly advance as well and stay ahead of the unscratched ones while you are killing the others.

Yes, later in the 1700s bombers might be good after the AI get artillery. But in the 1500s they don’t have artillery, and you don’t have bombers.

You maintain a tec lead the whole game while marching through AI after aI:
Kill longbow with mace men
Kill mace men / musket men with cavalry
Kill cavalry with riflemen
Kill riflemen with artillery or infantry
Kill artillery with bombers.

Bombers are two steps ahead of riflemen, so I’m going to have to disagree with you and say that bombers are not the way to go to attack the riflemen.

Artillery and infantry are on different tec paths, and both of them whip riflemen. The question was which one do people prefer to use on the riflemen. And NOT bombers!!

 

[Vulcans]

snowly white,
you have twice the land of the AI, therefore you have twice the production capability of the AI(probably more than twice with all your shiny factories etc). (what does the GDP graph look like?)

But he has twice the army. let me guess, all that production has gone into lots of nice shiny buildings.

you need to grit your teeth, get over that builders instinct and turn all your cities into mass producing units.

Hey if the game is nearly over you won't get much usage out of all those buildings.

Draft is also good for producing quick cannon fodder.

For the rest I'd agree with what's already been said in this thread, let them come to your land, so you have the mobility instead of them having mobility. Artillery are useless in defence. So you want to be the one attacking their stack.


chew through a few stacks of artillery, and the AI power graph will drop.
the AI is dumb in attacking, and doesn't use deadly force. meaning that you'll probably get a lot of promotions, and a kill ratio of 2:1.

the AI also doesn't defend it's cities well, or use the mobility of railroad well. so after getting through the reserve/mobile army then you'll only have to deal with a few city defenders in each city, which won't stand up to your mega stack of doom.

 

[cabert]

^^vulcans, if the AI has riflemen, canons are all I need to take them down.
I'm not a cavalry fan myself, bu I guess after 3 canons, riflemen don't resist a cavalry charge.
It seems indeed I didn't understand your question. It's a "I hate artillery" thread, so it's only normal I assumed the AIs would have artillery.

 

[Vulcans]

^^vulcans, if the AI has riflemen, canons are all I need to take them down.
I'm not a cavalry fan myself, bu I guess after 3 canons, riflemen don't resist a cavalry charge.
It seems indeed I didn't understand your question. It's a "I hate artillery" thread, so it's only normal I assumed the AIs would have artillery.

yes, i figured the question was misunderstood. i guess it could have gone in another thread, but we were talking about artillery anyway which braught this question to my mind.

yes, artillery is what i've normally used on riflemen in that situation, they do a sweet job!

although i'll have to test out cannons & infantry path instead of artilelry & rifllemen sometime. as infantry are really good against the riflemen 20+25% Vs 14 (175% strength ratio), compared to artillery of 18 Vs 14 (125% strendth ratio). But they miss out on the collateral advantage.

Inf are also slightly cheaper to build, Infantry are also draftable, where as artillery are not, so you’ll have more infantry. Instead of a few artillery and a lot of whimpy drafted riflemen.

Naturally artillery do better for killing a large stack of doom, although by this stage the AI normally only has 2-4 riflemen in each city+obsolete units, so mopup is done by splitting into lots of smaller stacks, reducing collateral advantage.

Well I’ll have to test it in my next game, compare the difference between going for artillery or going for infantry for the mopup exercise.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

But he has twice the army. let me guess, all that production has gone into lots of nice shiny buildings.

neah, he just has an immortal prod. bonus

 

[Vulcans]

neah, he just has an immortal prod. bonus

i normally play on empror, so by 1300s you have a tec lead, and it's just a mattre of going through the process of marching.

i know what it's like with the immortal bonus, those lucky As can build so much eaiser.

still, you have about 2.5 times his land, so that should be able to match the bonus production.

i think what was said before prety much covers it, i see the roads between your teritory is cut, providing fist strike. there has been a mass arms buildup, time to relieve the tension. try to get a good position where fighting will benefit you (your land, defence bonus, big stack to spread collateral, first strike to deal collateral before them etc. then a big bloodbath trying to get a kill ratio of 2:1. after the bloodbath, the AI loses their force, and your units heal, then it's on yo cleaning the home land defence.

do you have rushmore, police state and jaols? there could be mass carnage, so WW could be an issue.

hey, if all else fails, nukes can be fun if his main force is located in one spot, that will bring his power down fast!

Good luck, i look forwards to seeing how it ends!

 

[Vulcans]

what is your relation with asoka? can it be repaired? it must be bad at the moment if you're at war. if you had open boarders with him and brennus didn't then that could also be a good landing spot for a second force.

 

[futurehermit]

My advice would be to win in the renaissance era

On a more serious note, I think it is important to be the first to artillery. When I win domination I usually close out the game around artillery after being the first one to get it...

 

[Vulcans]

My advice would be to win in the renaissance era

On a more serious note, I think it is important to be the first to artillery. When I win domination I usually close out the game around artillery after being the first one to get it...

yes, exactly, artillery is a nice way to close out the game, being first to artillery is very important, nothing can stop you then.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

i know what it's like with the immortal bonus, those lucky As can build so much eaiser.

still, you have about 2.5 times his land, so that should be able to match the bonus production.

i think what was said before prety much covers it, i see the roads between your teritory is cut, providing fist strike. there has been a mass arms buildup, time to relieve the tension.

actually had about 50%, with brenus around 40%. Asoka is at war because he's his vassal. Problem is half of my teritory was recently conquered, so no infrastructure there.

And that's why I've cut the railroads; he comes within 1 square of my city with his stack, I sacrifice a few arty, and then take down his stack with gunships/infantry. The medic 3 general allows fast healing.
The reason why I've beelined flight/rocketry is exactly because gunships allow you to take down his rail network, while still keeping enough movement points to retreat back to safety in the same turn. Without railway, his stack is doomed since I can strike them down without fearing the arty. Bar taking down railroads and then wait for the ai to come, I didn't find an effective way of fighting against it. Obviously, if it ain't a freshly conquered city as it was here, so you have a further cultural border, you don't even have to take down their railroad.

Anyway, after 15 turns, his power was below mine, so I could conquer the last 4 cities needed.