The trait tiers

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Matjillam1, Feb 28, 2008.

  1. Matjillam1

    Matjillam1 Chieftain

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    I often hear ppl say things like: "Protective is the lowest tier trait" and "Organized is mid-tier".

    Well, I'm curious. what does YOUR tier-system look like and why?

    I'll begin (tier 1 being bad and tier 4 being good):

    1. tier
    - Protective (it just sucks overall, I mean how often do u spam longbows for an attack?)
    - imperialistic (those 50 % settlers doesnt do that much. The GG's are okay though)

    2. tier
    - Indostrious (I like cheap forges. but still not that good)
    - aggressive (well, you dont allways need war. If you fancy classical/medievel war, it's the way to go)
    - spiritual (think it's a good trait, I just don't think I use it the right way)

    3. tier
    - expansive (extra health + cheap granny's = big cities fast)
    - creative (gr8 early game not having to worry about expanding BFC)
    - financial (good when doing CE, but I'm not a big fan of total cottage spam)

    4. tier
    - Philosophical (Gimmi more GP's! MORE MORE MORE!)
    - Charismatic (nice for warmongering AND brilliant in the beginning if u get Stonehenge!)

    I've shown you mine, now show me yours!
     
  2. Tomoyo

    Tomoyo Fate

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    Usually the term is "first tier," "second tier," etc, so higher number is usually worse.

    Personally, mine goes

    First tier: Financial, Charismatic
    Second tier: Creative, Aggressive, Industrious
    Third tier: Expansive, Philosophical
    Fourth tier: Protective, Imperialistic

    My choices are based solely on which traits I consider fun. Charismatic means super-units, which are fun. Financial means super-cottage economy, which is more fun than the specialist economy. Then there's Creative for not having to spend effort to expand borders and Aggressive for the free delicious combat one promotion which makes my units fun. Industrious means forges and wonders, which are fun. I'm a pretty bad player, and don't use the great people well anyway, so Philosophical goes down a bit. (Also, I don't like the specialist economy.) Expansive just doesn't give fun results. Then Protective and Imperialistic are just well, not really that flashy.
     
  3. Refar

    Refar Deity

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    We did not have a dedicated "Best Trait" discussion for at least 2 days now. It was time to opne a new one. I would suggest making a poll as well.
     
  4. Tomoyo

    Tomoyo Fate

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    But this thread does not ask for best traits. It discusses traits in a novel fashion not discussed since, I don't know, a week ago. This particular method of comparing traits with each other lends itself to open discussion eventually leading to someone quoting the OED for the etymology of "tier."

    In fact, this thread has the potential to revolutionize the entire thinking of the game industry. All mu--

    Okay, running out of excuses. Just really wanted to correct the whole tier-numbering thing.
     
  5. Hammurbabble

    Hammurbabble Warlord

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    The question isn't what traits are better or worse, it's how you need to play each one. Only if you're stuck on a single strategy will there be absolutely "good" and "bad" traits.

    In the early game, Protective gives you superior defenders, which helps you hold out against both barbarians and AI when -- as you WILL be at higher difficulty levels -- you are on the defensive instead of on the attack. Also, including some Longbows in your SoD when you are on the attack helps protect the stack, and gives you superior city garrison. Remember, the AI always prioritizes taking back a city you've taken from them. Superior defense is just as important as superior attack.

    Plus, in the Industrial Age, when your main attackers become gunpowder units, Protective boosts your attackers, too. City Garrison isn't an attack promotion, but Drill is, and it opens up other promotions that are even better. And even the City Garrison will help defend your -- city garrisons. Since you will want to hold the cities you take, unless of course you're just razing.

    The settler-build boost is an early-game advantage entirely. It helps your initial expansion. But that's a good thing. That initial start can help you throughout the game. Of course, it's not much advantage if you choose to expand through an early rush instead of with settlers, but hey -- if that's what you want to do, don't choose an Imp leader, and if you go random and get an Imp leader, don't use that strategy.

    The best thing about Industrious is the cheap wonders, not the cheap forges, although that's OK too. The way you play an Ind leader is, of course, to spam wonders, and use the benefits of those wonders to fuel your progress and expansion.

    Aggressive, like Protective, boosts gunpowder units, not just melee units, so it's good right to the end of the game. Combat I isn't so much by itself, but it opens up a lot of other promotions that are.

    Of course, if you want to play a peaceful game, this trait is worthless, but see above under Imperialistic and an early rush. If you want to play peacefully, don't go with Aggressive, and if you get an Agg leader randomly, don't play peacefully.

    It is a good trait, and the way to use it is of course to change civics and/or religions whenever you need do, for whatever purpose you have. Where any other leader has to minimize civic changes, a Spiritual leader can go back and forth between (say) Pacifism and Theocracy, or Slavery and Caste System, to meet whatever need arises.

    Yes, that's the best thing about expansive, all right. ;)

    Plus it gives you a small extra edge in the culture struggle between border cities, plus it lets you build libraries, theaters, and colosseums cheaply. The libraries are especially great, in the early game.

    Yes, it's at its best when running a CE. If you run a pure SE, don't use Financial, and if you're Financial, don't run a pure SE. But then, I don't believe in running a pure SE anyway.

    This is nice; of course, same caveat in reverse: if you're running a pure CE, don't bother with Philo, and if you're Philo, don't run a pure CE. But then, I don't believe in running a pure CE anyway. ;)

    It does make Stonehenge a better wonder choice, but I still like the cheap promotions better, and don't forget the +1 happy face per city! I think my two favorite warmongering leaders are Churchill (Protective/Charismatic) and Boudica (Aggressive/Charismatic).

    I can't really show you mine, because what I want is to learn how to play with any and all traits. My feel is that they're all about equally good, but require different strategies to leverage well.
     
  6. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    1st: Charismatic, Financial, Philosophical, Spiritual
    2nd: The Rest
    3rd: Aggressive, Expansive, Protective
    4th: Imperialistic

    They all have their uses but thats how I'd rate them in terms of likely to be useful to me most often. That said I rarely play Financial leaders and my favourite leader is Spiritual and Imperialistic but he has a very good UB.
     
  7. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    I have my own personal favorites, but if I'm trying to be objective:

    Top: Charismatic, Philosophical, Financial
    High: Spiritual, Organized
    Middle: Aggressive, Creative, Industrious
    Low: Expansive
    Bottom: Protective, Imperialistic
     
  8. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    Top:
    Imperialistic, sets up 3-4 cities very fast so you can hook up copper and horses, and lets you war the rest of the game getting stronger and stronger. In late Game wars its easy to get tanks at CR III + Barrage II or III off the bat, AntiTanks mean nothing to you.

    Financial, It helps Cottages, but I dont usually find this to be its best asset. Great ocean tiles to be harvested off the bat if you get a coastal capital. Great elephents if you get them, great beavers, beter any coin resource basically. Late game you can be a hammer monster with rivers and hills with wind\watermills and communism, and you still have a great economy to boot!

    Charasmatic, Extra happy and easier to set up CR II and III units. Cha\Imp makes really, really scary endgame units.

    Aggressive, Units tend to win more battles, yay. Also access to teir 2 promotions and easy to get medic II chariot (or III if you go that way)

    Spiritual, You are the Diplo King! Make allies, destroy you're enimies. If you get the pyramids you can fly with Rep switch to US to spend gold to Police State if you get lots of WW. Plus it almost always cancels the slave revolt event because you only stay in slavery when you need to whip. Cheap Temples are also awesome if you're going for cultual victory.

    Creative, You're boarders are easily established, and you can grab territory even from the stonehenge player. Cheap libraries for good early tecking, cheap theaters to establish yourself in captured territories.

    Philisophical, Great for early game expantion with extra whatever from your first fast great person. Not as good as people think late game, becaue it only nets you a couple more great people than going without would. You have to establish yourself early with Philo or you're beter with something else.

    Middle Teir,
    Protective, Very good vs AI, build a boarder fort and they will throw themselves on it like idiots, then move in with a proper attack force and take their cities with much less struggle, and less WW. Not as wonderfull vs humans, as they wouldnt suicide like that, and you'd have to counter or be pillaged, negating your prot advantage.

    Industrious, Good all around trait.

    Expansive, Good all around trait.

    Bottom Teir,
    Orginized, Civic upkeep is a small % of you're economy even late game, early game this trait gives you nothing. Courthouses are not as good as markets if you have estabished yourself well, and currency gives a trade route, I'll eventually get them, but probably not very early.
     
  9. BalbanesBeoulve

    BalbanesBeoulve Emperor

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    Wow. Just wow.
     
  10. Jazzmail

    Jazzmail King

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    I put much weight to how early a trait kicks in.

    1. Financial. From the moment you plop your initial settler, provided you start with bonus food on a coast. If not, it should help even before your first settler build. Financial = Now&Forever.

    2. Charismatic. +2 to capital size before or just after your first settler build, depending on how well the capital is situated. Pushes back the most limiting cap in the game before monarchy, in case you didn't get the pyramids.
    Then the XP bonus kicks in during your first conflict and will help you every following war.

    3. Aggressive. From your first troubles with barbarians till the last civ you conquer.

    4. Organized. A cheaper lighthouse will help if the capital situated on the coast. Specially if you got clams or other food bonusses in the water, then the bonus will give you a small headstart even before your first settler.
    Then you can pump out an extra settler or two, because you will save a few coins.
    The bigger bonus kicks in only when you conquer big from the classical era and onwards.

    5. Creative. Your first cultural border expansion around any city will come faster, which may make that second or third bonus food tile come available earlier. May be a big deal, starting from your second settlement and onwards.

    6. Expansive. The cheaper granary will help, but you usually don't need one in your capital at first, as you will hit the happiness cap there and stuff like work boats and the lighthouse may have priority. Moreover, early growth already happened during early scout and warrior production.
    The BTS 25% worker production is prolly the best advantage here.

    7. Imperialistic. From your first settler build until the best spots have been taken. May make it a little easier to block of AI expansion early.

    8. Spiritual. Late. Saves you one full turn worth of national production starting from organised religion or slavery and will gradually offer more flexibility as the game progresses.

    9. Philosophical. Late. Only when you got cities with libraries and scientists in the classical era, will you start getting GPs sooner.

    10. Defensive. It's a help against early barbarian raids, but generally not as useful as aggressive and you don't need both traits.

    11. Industrious. Much too late, too little. Half-priced forges = meh.
    Maybe benefit from 1 early wonder @+50%, but then even a lucky start with stone has a greater impact here.
    I'd rather have all the turn advantage any other trait can give me (I'm also thinking organized religion here).
     
  11. lovetramy

    lovetramy Warlord

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    top tier : Fin , Phil , Ind
    bottom tier : Protective
    Mid tier : the rest
    some say Imp is bad I dont think so . You can expand 50% faster in the beginning ( like only have to chop 2 forest instead of 3 for a settlers in Epic speed , which is a BIG difference for me ) And you know in this game if you have a good start , have lots of good land early game you'd have won already unless you doing something really bad later . The fast GG is always good later for fast medic or settle for high xp troops quick .
     
  12. Feanor01

    Feanor01 Chieftain

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    I play on Marathon so things are a bit different. I think the Spiritial trait is very powerful in my games. I was invaded last night and had a fairly weak military. I switched to Police State, Nationhood, Slavery, Theocracy and drafted four riflemen, whipped out 3 more. The power of this trait is that I did not have to have 5-6 turns of revolution you experience on Marathon speed games. If I was not spiritual, I would not have been able to respond quickly to the invader and would have lost atleast one city.
     
  13. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    Agreed, Spiritual is above top teir on marathon. Its usefullness kicks in as early as slavery where you can prevent revolts by civic changes.

    I have severe doubts that orginized allows another settler or two, as it saves money on civics not city maintianence. Even running orginized religion and monarchy it would be .3 or less per city saved. I guess the lighthosues might help, but its just cheap lighthouses, not + anything, Fin is a permenent + and you can still build lighthouses. By the time it kicks in as helpfull, perhaps around sci method, I usually have a strong economy anyway. Every other trait is great, but I'd only work with that if it came up randomly.
     
  14. cronullasharks

    cronullasharks Warlord

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    If you were to accept any map you get then organised is very useful as it supports both an SE and a CE.

    re. courts vs markets.....yes markets bring in more raw gold and offer happiness...but courts to an organised leader are dirt cheap , are essential for any espionage , and most importantly function just as well no matter where you have the slider
     
  15. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    I dont run SE's or CE's. Whatever is best for the city is what it will get. The two traits people say are bent to one or the other really arnt so much, Philisopical doesent actually benifit specialists in any way, it gives you more great people, so its more for you're National Epic city and an early GP off a wonder or temple or library. Financial works on any 2 commerce tile, and that is a wide variety of tiles, arguably cottages are the least usefull improvement for a Fin leader becasue the % gain is smaller.
    If youre slider is high science at that point, its probably from a holy city or great people, in which case one market will benifit more than a slew of courthouses, and if its low the markets are worth much, much more. I dont think courthouses are that great for an EE, +2 isnt much in the 80-120 you'd be getting at that point, though one for you're great person city to try to groom a Great Spy is important. As far as cheap goes, expansive gives you faster pop growth in many cases, and that extra food will translate into more hammers than org saves you in its one shot savings. My dislike of it roots in the fact that it doesent help any economy untill at least CoL (though perhaps the lightouses help some people a lot) and doesent give any signifigant benifit untill industrial or modern. It saves you more as you grow, but you're economy is strong when you grow well anyway, the issue in Civ is more doing the growing, once thats done more territory means more improvements means you have fast tecking anyway.
     
  16. cronullasharks

    cronullasharks Warlord

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    Yeah thats a fair point , a range of quality cities will outdo any trait benefit out there....and expansive etc allows that.

    Maybe if you are fighting alot then organised comes to the fore...just slam a courthouse into the captured city and move on.

    I also like being able to found a coastal city even if it only has one decent land tile to work...just use that tile for a cheap lighthouse and you can let it go for a while even without a worker.

    I think I`m a bit lazy when it comes to my cities as I prefer quantity over quality (I know its costing me though) , so organised is handy.......In fact Babylon is close to my fave Civ
     
  17. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    I think it would be true that it would help slave a courthouse fast, but, (yes another but) for warring I like traits that let me save lives, and long term fin is beter. I never have founded a purely coastal city like that, if you had a lot of water tiles the Moai statues would be great. I guess I've had some one tile island cities, but thats usually later in the game, cash rush. I do think orginized has some pretty decent uses, but I dont like it, overly orginized people bug me, and honestly I would prefer a lot of other traits. Once you get a full set of civics though it probably will add 2-8% to you're economy, and that is admitedly sizable.
     
  18. cronullasharks

    cronullasharks Warlord

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    Ok I`m sold......who would you suggest I try next? I want to combine proper happy , healthy cities with lots of fighting....But I would prefer not to go financial
     
  19. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Cyrus is pretty good (Cha/Imp)
     
  20. cronullasharks

    cronullasharks Warlord

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    Dont get me started on IMHO the most under rated leader in the game......the ultimate war monger....love Cyrus...almost feels like cheating (a la Rome)...even metals can wait just go crazy with highly promoted immortals

    The recovery can be painful though
     

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