The Underappreciated Navy

[Surtur]

Higher movement and zone of control would really help the navies to become more important.

 

[jpowers]

The real turning point for naval importance was colonization. Since there is no concept of a colony (resource exploitation within someone else's cultural boundary) or of sea trade routes (currents and prevailing winds that make it impossible for age of sail ships to advance in certain sea squares), there's little point in navies other than for invasion purposes.

 

[Craniumgroup]

To respond to some of these posts:

I don't think I am in favor of the granularity of producing a merchant vessel and plying the seas with his wares. That brings up a micromanagement issue that Civ4 takes pains to avoid. I would like to see the Blockade capability come back (Civ3 had it IIRC) and that could disrupt overseas trade nicely without having to bother with finding and destroying merchant vessels and there escorts, etc. But with the new Trade Network rules, you would have to blockade every coastal city and that could be a tall order depending on the map. Regardless, it would be nice to see that capability restored.

I do appreciate the fact that it is hard to represent certain aspects of the game with a turn-based system, but in my original post I thought that they were close. I personally think making water resources truely oceanic and developing a worker boat-class that could exploit deep water squares regardless of cultural boundaries would truly be enough to add that extra bit of emphasis that I'm looking for. It would give civs something to compete over on the water like they compete over resources on land.

...C

 

[gippy]

To respond to some of these posts:

I don't think I am in favor of the granularity of producing a merchant vessel and plying the seas with his wares. That brings up a micromanagement issue that Civ4 takes pains to avoid. I would like to see the Blockade capability come back (Civ3 had it IIRC) and that could disrupt overseas trade nicely without having to bother with finding and destroying merchant vessels and there escorts, etc. But with the new Trade Network rules, you would have to blockade every coastal city and that could be a tall order depending on the map. Regardless, it would be nice to see that capability restored.

I do appreciate the fact that it is hard to represent certain aspects of the game with a turn-based system, but in my original post I thought that they were close. I personally think making water resources truely oceanic and developing a worker boat-class that could exploit deep water squares regardless of cultural boundaries would truly be enough to add that extra bit of emphasis that I'm looking for. It would give civs something to compete over on the water like they compete over resources on land.

...C

I thought Civ IV _did_ have blockades? At least, they're referenced in the manual. I haven't tried them, but presumably if one blocks every water square adjacent to a city, it's blockaded. And, historically, it _did_ take a fair number of ships to effectively blockade a city (of course, they could also partially blockade...). As you say, if the city's also connected by roads then a blockades much more difficult to establish - but that too seems realistic.

Blockades are probably most effective against island cities.

And, a trade embargo is likely a more effective tool to use against a whole empire.

 

[Craniumgroup]

I thought Civ IV _did_ have blockades? At least, they're referenced in the manual.

Really? I read the manual and didn't see that. I will check again. That is something, at least.

...C

 

[Acce]

I think ships need to regain their abilities to can attack units on costal tiles and bombard maptiles. As it is, the only reason I would ever build a ship is for defence against other troop transports.
If there was possible to subdue a nation with costal bombardment, blockades and maybe having other effects, moral effect "there enemy troops in the vincinity, do something about it) it would open up a lot for more interesting 'sea map' games.

Currently I find the number of sea units and the strategical possibilities they open up for are way to limited and I tend to ignore ships unless forced to protect/fight transports, and a lot of the suggestion mentioned here would be very nice.

 

[karadoc]

They should add in a feature for port blockade, similar to they have in RTW. Imagine how a civ would be suffering if loses several of its sea based trade routes at once.

There was such a feature in Civ3, did they remove it?

 

[playshogi]

You can have merchant ships in the game represented on the map, too. For example, all trade routes should be represented by a totally automated merchant ship (or caravan on land) on the map going to and fro between those two cities. This is similar to the caravan of Rise of Nations. To avoid clutter on the map, they only appear on the map when you are at war with that civ.

I think port blockade is in. If an enemy ship is in your cities work tiles, then you can't work those sea tiles at all.

 

[oper]

Though I do agree that navy could be a bit more realistic. But there aren't much of pirates in the modern days. that was back in the wooden ship days. And they do already spawn barbarian ships and you can already set how frequent they are.

are you kidding me? Piracy is indeed a big problem. on world basis an act of piracy is reported daily, DAILY. last week british sailors called for the UN to create a taskforce to combat piracy, after the "Seabourn Spirit" a cruise ship with 600 passengers was attacked.

 

[JG99_Korab]

let me correct myself. Its just not much you hear about and its just not as BIG of a problem as it used to be

 

[oper]

ofcourse not, Britain is no longer a state sponsor of piracy

 

[DrJambo]

In fact, something no one has mentioned so far is that it is possible to use your navy offensively in a sort of blockading manner!

When at war a naval vessel can prevent an enemy city from working any of its coastal or ocean squares surrounding the naval vessel. That's 8 squares, 9 including the one the ship's on! What this means is that large cities relying on their coastal squares to maintain their size are doomed to face severe starvation and loss of commerce. Not only that, but pillaging sea resources like fish, crabs, whales and clams can have major ramifications for city health and that civ's trade relations with other civs. I know that when the AI attacks my sea resources it seriously hampers my progression.

Because of these reasons navies are indeed important during wartime, especially if you have a lot of sea resources and are playing on an archipaelago map.

 

[wilierthanu]

I have to agree with Trojan Sheep and Ktulu, a strong navy is part of my game regardless of the level I have played on. The AI is always harassing my resources whether on land or water. I learned my lesson the first time I lost my offshore oilrig during a war. Talk about totally restricting my unit production at that point! Beside if i am going to talk a battle to another continent I prefer to bombard the city with my navy and then take it with my land units and use that city as a staging point. Guess that is my style.

 

[Roxinante]

"When I sally forth to seek my prey
I help myself in a royal way.
I sink a few more ships, it’s true,
Than a well-bred monarch ought to do;
But many a king on a first-class throne,
If he wants to call his crown his own,
Must manage somehow to get through
More dirty work than ever I do"
-The Pirate King "Pirates of Penzance"

So we're all behind the idea of piracy - which there is a little bit of in the game. You sack a fishery you get a few gold - the last shots of the American Civil War were fired by a Confederate privateer preying on Union whaling vessels in the Aleutians. Whats needed is a mechanism for taking enemy vessels.
I think to be historically correct, it would have to be age-specific. You cant just 'take' an aircraft carrier, unless you captured it in port, be certainly there are many examples of prize ships in the Age of Sail or earlier naval periods where ship to ship warfare was right up close.

"At length we stood two cables away (how I wish I was in Sturbrook now)
Our crack four-pounders made an awful din
But with one fat ball the Yank' stove us in
Barrett was smashed like a bowl of eggs
and the main truck carried off both me legs"
-Stan Rogers "Barrett's Privateers"

 

[spincrus]

I agree with you on most parts. I think deep water resources and more stuff to protect is an essential thing.

I had major, MAJOR sea battles with the English while I was playing Rome: they were escorting two carriers with four battleships and six destroyers. I also had a good Northern Navy (I kept a big one in the South just to make sure I can protect myself well enough). They clashed, I won, and I only had one battleship, two destroyers and one submarine left after the war. It was incredibly fun.

However, that was pretty much it. Afterwards, I built a couple more battleships to protect my cities from enemy transports, and the battles thereafter were pretty much just to hunt down transports carrying gunships and mechanized infantries (and the enemy had suffered severe losses too).

They should add in a feature for port blockade, similar to they have in RTW. Imagine how a civ would be suffering if loses several of its sea based trade routes at once.

Mutax2003

I think Mutax' idea is also brilliant. A blockade would be great. Any warship, except for the transports and caravels, should be able to place a blockade. But as they unit gets stronger, the blockade increases. That is, each galley would make a 20% trade income reduction, galleon 40%, frigate 60%, destroyer 80%, battleships 100% and submarines also 100%, only to affect that city. These values should be stackable. Any ship should also be able to completely cut the resource trade of that city (i.e. if the city is only getting its sheep, deer, pigs, etc. through a sea route, it will be getting absolutely none of these).

Just my 2 cents.

 

[DaveDash]

Call to Power 2 had it so much better than Civ ever has had in so many ways.

Every time I see a thread saying 'I wish Civ4 had this' I think 'Call To Power 2 did this'.

Basically you have trade routes that are displayed on the map. Enemy ships on your trade routes could 'pirate' it without declaring war. One diplomatic option was to stop piracy or else.

Later on you could also build privateers which did not have your civs markings, and you could pirate trade routes without straining diplomatic relations.

Of course, one needed a navy to protect ones trade routes.

 

[Bast]

Call to Power 2 had it so much better than Civ ever has had in so many ways.

Every time I see a thread saying 'I wish Civ4 had this' I think 'Call To Power 2 did this'.

Basically you have trade routes that are displayed on the map. Enemy ships on your trade routes could 'pirate' it without declaring war. One diplomatic option was to stop piracy or else.

Later on you could also build privateers which did not have your civs markings, and you could pirate trade routes without straining diplomatic relations.

Of course, one needed a navy to protect ones trade routes.

Yeah call to power is a very underrated game. They also had missionaries first.

 

[Radres]

"When I sally forth to seek my prey
I help myself in a royal way.
I sink a few more ships, it’s true,
Than a well-bred monarch ought to do;
But many a king on a first-class throne,
If he wants to call his crown his own,
Must manage somehow to get through
More dirty work than ever I do"
-The Pirate King "Pirates of Penzance"

"At length we stood two cables away (how I wish I was in Sturbrook now)
Our crack four-pounders made an awful din
But with one fat ball the Yank' stove us in
Barrett was smashed like a bowl of eggs
and the main truck carried off both me legs"
-Stan Rogers "Barrett's Privateers"

"In the navy
Yes, you can sail the seven seas
In the navy
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the navy
Come on now, people, make a stand
In the navy, in the navy
Can't you see we need a hand
In the navy
Come on, protect the motherland
In the navy
Come on and join your fellow man
In the navy
Come on people, and make a stand
In the navy, in the navy, in the navy (in the navy)"
-The Village People "In the Navy"

 

[Polopapolo]

I have never placed much importance in navies either so here are my suggestions:

- Bring back privateers as a promotion for sea-going vessels so you can produce pirate destroyers, submarines, battleships, etc. with no national markings. However if yours is the only civ ABLE to produce these units, the AI should figure it out!

- How about oil as an ocean ressource. Oil ressources should dwindle with use, as in CivIII but in less of a random manner, say like a count in thousands of barrels. That would also facilitate trade of this ressource (ex.: 100 barrels/turn for 20 gold) and would definitely need some protection...

- I like the new circumnavigation option where you get +1 movement when you make it around the globe first. A true Magellan-like addition, much improved from the wonder of previous games, this time you actually get to do it! I usally did it anyway just for fun...

- How about currents and weather patterns? I understand that this would be a big challenge but to me sea tiles are just sooooo boring! Give me trenches, volcanoes and sea ridge lines and the gulf stream for pete's sake! Maybe some areas have severe storms so they can sink even modern ships if you enter them. This would allow natural sea going trade routes that you can blockade, attack, loot, etc.

 

[DaveDash]

Of course, I should add to my CTP2 Navy idea that the AI didnt handle it very well.

Part of me suspects Civ4 has been 'dumbed' down for numerous reasons - playability,using resource hog XML/python, and of course, AI.

Having lesser options means the AI has an easier time of it. Any new navy implimentations would have to take AI into consideration.