The "Why is the AI Outpacing Me?" Thread

[steveg700]

So I decided to spend part of a day off firing up TOW for the first time in a long while. Picked Greece, basic difficulty (Just?). It's a real pain in the neck for me, literally, as the text for everything is so tiny. Needs to be a way to adjust that.

At any rate, my experience now seems to mirror the previous games. Cities produce everything super-slowly, and it seems I'm out-teched, out-settled, and out-muscled pretty quickly. Rome declares war, and by the time I can march two warriors over, they're mowed down in one move by a slinger+chariot combo.

In general, I must be missing quite a lot. Some things I observe:

The AI's borders expand faster. This is based on culture level?

The AI is able to get multiple tribes to pleased while actions like diplomatic actions will still leave me at Upset or Cautious. What are they doing to improve relations?

They can both research better units faster and build them faster. I was playing as Greece. Philip and Alexander both have Courage and other military traits, but I found that until I can unlock and build garrisons I don't have governors. So I guess that's not going to help. What could the AI be doing that I'm not?

Oh, and remind me: are all tribe/barb camps city sites once they're cleared?

Thanks in advance. This forum doesn't seem too active, but better the devil you know.

 

[Dale]

Firstly, this isn't Civ. Two warrior army will have you dead quick. You need many units to defend. At easy levels if they dow don't go to them. Hide ranged in a forest and use warriors as mop up. Terrain is important. Occupy hills and forest with ranged.

Borders are not culture but improvement based. Urban buildings push borders out, and rural buildings do when you add a specialist.

Try to stop AI nations dropping below cautious. Use influence missions, marriages and generally sucking up. Get those barb and tribal sites settled fast. Don't steal them off AI either. That really pissed them off.

Faster research comes from characters. Court scholars, marry a high wisdom character. Greece's focus is culture though, which opens higher level buildings. Which means better specialists. Which means more science and civics.

In cities keep your capital building settlers till all sites occupied. Improve nets and food resources first for high growth (not food). Other cities easiest to learn the game is worker, warrior, slinger, specialist, warrior, slinger, specialist, etc. You can switch family seats to build their special ability instead of military after you have 6 cities.

But most importantly. Stop.Playing.Like.Civ.

 

[Dave "old computer guy"]

Great reply Dale, your experience shows and is really helpful to us lesser skilled mortals. I'd like to add a couple of small tricks I have discovered in a year of "noobie" play, usually at level 3 (Good) against 3 or 4 AI.

I usually play as Rome or Greece. When configuring the game startup, go to the bottom of the advanced settings and set the AI development advantage to none otherwise the AI starts with a 3 city advantage which I think is grossly unfair to a beginner.

Add a promotion to every unit you build. The added strength is definitely noticeable. Two promoted warriors will usually take out a barb/tribe camp and it's guard in three or four turns {except for the Danes.They are tough and prolific.I wouldn't start messing with them until I had all my cities well protected). If you take one of their camps they will attack one or two of your cities within a couple of turns.

And yes, stop thinking you're playing Civ.

 

[Soren Johnson]

Don't forget to add Generals, especially your Leader. If s/he is a Tactician, s/he can Stun enemy units.

 

[steveg700]

Firstly, this isn't Civ. Two warrior army will have you dead quick. You need many units to defend. At easy levels if they dow don't go to them. Hide ranged in a forest and use warriors as mop up. Terrain is important. Occupy hills and forest with ranged.

Borders are not culture but improvement based. Urban buildings push borders out, and rural buildings do when you add a specialist.

Try to stop AI nations dropping below cautious. Use influence missions, marriages and generally sucking up. Get those barb and tribal sites settled fast. Don't steal them off AI either. That really pissed them off.

Faster research comes from characters. Court scholars, marry a high wisdom character. Greece's focus is culture though, which opens higher level buildings. Which means better specialists. Which means more science and civics.

In cities keep your capital building settlers till all sites occupied. Improve nets and food resources first for high growth (not food). Other cities easiest to learn the game is worker, warrior, slinger, specialist, warrior, slinger, specialist, etc. You can switch family seats to build their special ability instead of military after you have 6 cities.

But most importantly. Stop.Playing.Like.Civ.

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure what stop playing like Cv means exactly, other than maybe focus on conquest over building. Certainly being in a mad dash to expand into every available city-site does not sound that different from Civ.

The fact that you can just park a scout to claim any city-site anywhere on the map is annoying, and the fact that there's no peaceful way to remove them but they can easily be removed forcefully does indicate this game wants players to be at war a lot.

The rate of cranking out anything is painfully slow. If I have three cities, I'm not cranking out settlers and warriors very quickly (and that leaves out workers and other useful units). What-to-do advice is useful, but how-to-do advice is foundational. Military units require military points, but the cities aren't generating lots of them early on without any improvements.

 

[Dale]

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure what stop playing like Cv means exactly, other than maybe focus on conquest over building. Certainly being in a mad dash to expand into every available city-site does not sound that different from Civ.

The fact that you can just park a scout to claim any city-site anywhere on the map is annoying, and the fact that there's no peaceful way to remove them but they can easily be removed forcefully does indicate this game wants players to be at war a lot.

The rate of cranking out anything is painfully slow. If I have three cities, I'm not cranking out settlers and warriors very quickly (and that leaves out workers and other useful units). What-to-do advice is useful, but how-to-do advice is foundational. Military units require military points, but the cities aren't generating lots of them early on without any improvements.

Okay to try and help you with the first 20 or so turns. You mention Greece in the OP so I'll answer based on that. I'm also basing this on starting on the Good difficulty.
In general, you want to try and have your capital have as much growth as possible. Growth is what builds settlers/workers. So have a look what resources are around your capital. And at least while you're learning the game, maybe restart till you get some growth resources in your capital starting borders. Take a look below. The city site location gives me two growth resources (crabs and wheat). However if I move south-east one tile and found there, I get four growth resources (2 crab, 1 wheat, 1 cows).

Look at your families, to see who might work best here. I would advise as Greece, found the capital as Artisans. Your capital will focus on settlers initially, so no point having Champions and that family is military focused. Patrons or Sages may be attractive here, but with Artisans you get a free worker at the family seat (first city of that family). They also have ship bonuses which will be handy later (being a coastal city). That extra worker though will be huge as you can hook up 2 growth resources at a time. So in 6 turns you'll have 3 resources hooked up (pasture requires husbandry so it'll be later). This is a 60% increase in growth, meaning faster settlers.

Promote your warrior, and start moving your scout last. Turn 1, the order is workers first, promote military unit, move scout. Tech wise, some key starting techs (no matter who you play) is the ironworking, trapping (for warriors/slingers) and stone working. You also have a choice, but not important turn 1, is what discontent mitigation method you want to use early on? Paganism (divination tech), religion (really only applicable for Clerics families at this early stage) or odeons (drama tech)? It might be easier for you to manage one path instead of 2 or 3. Paganism and religions do create potential issues later on with the families. As Greece you start with drama tech, so probably not important specifically for them. In general, paganism gives shrines and is quicker to setup than religions which give greater benefits, but take longer to get going properly. Odeons/theatres/ampitheatres can be built in any city with weak/developing/strong culture (hence why culture is important for Greece).

The next few turns are more of the same. Add your leader as the general of your unit (free on turn 2 if tutorials are on) and promote again. You should move your scout such that you stop on each resource and harvest. Ones to especially look out for: elephants (possible random event free elephant, which will make you dominant over barbs/tribes so early) and resources that give culture as harvest (such as honey). Your goal these first few turns is to find the couple of free city sites (empty, no barbs/tribes) and a barb camp. Once you find a barb camp send that warrior to it and destroy it as fast as possible. Leave the warrior on the captured city site.

Important note here: you have about 10 turns to find and occupy your free city sites before the AI can potentially grab them. They leave them alone at the start. This may mean you might need to stop exploring to park your scout on one until a settler arrives. Free sites are the best ones. Then barb sites.

Eventually your workers will finish their first builds. Order of priority for workers is growth resources, stone, iron then food. Greece's captial it also pays to bang up an early odeon too.

Turn 5: note here I didn't find a barb camp, found 3 free sites (warrior now on 1 of them) and Babs close on my south-east front. In this instance I'm giving up on the early barb camp and going to occupy 2 of my free sites with the warrior and scout, and settle the third. Till I can free those units up with more settlers.

It's time for city 2. I have Carthage and Babs on my southern front. I'm thinking it's a good idea to put my Champions seat (military family) on the southern city site. Have that city build a worker first to start improving it, then onto unit, unit, specialist, unit, unit, specialist etc. Capital should immediately start another settler. You want to get to 4 cities pretty quickly.

You probably finish research about now too. Remember the important tier 1 techs I mentioned earlier, and if you get offered tier 2 techs good ones are Labor Force (roads to connect cities) and Military Drill (barracks).
I chose four cities for my first ambition. With no barb camps, pointless going for kill 5 units. 4 cities will definitely be before that happens.

One tip with cities. Urban improvements expand your border. Urban improvements can be build on non-urban tiles if there are 2 adjacent urban tiles. See in below image (and refer to above). I have built the odeon on what was a grass tile, next to 2 urban tiles. The odeon has pushed the border and any resources the border increase touches is also included. So now I also have the honey tile in my city's borders.

So here I am at turn 10. I have two nice city sites up the north half, with silver, salt, animal resources. Oh trick with scouts. If they're occupying a city site, use their movement to your benefit. They have 4 move so they can move out two moves, and then back to the city site each turn. Plus the can harvest around the city site. Military units probably best to move 1 out as they only have 3 move (unless Rome who gets +1 fatigue). The capital has 3 growth resources, a quarry, an odeon and a mine and second quarry on the way. It is 1 turn away from developing culture, when you can start rushing production. Use civics to rush finish your settlers.

Down south is going to be trouble. Carthage is already stiring trouble demanding tribute. I'm still paying at this point to palm them off till later. That Champions seat is going to be critical in defending when war with them comes (which it will). Luckily I have some good forest and mountains to defend in the south. Slingers in the forest with guard 1 promotion will be difficult to dislodge. Which is why the capital's quarries will be important (slingers need stone).

Over the next 10 turns the Champions seat focuses on slinger-warrior builds. They're currently 5 turns each to build in that city. You'll also want to build some barracks in this city. Parking a melee unit on one will give +10xp each turn. Free (or cheaper) promotions that means. Plus barracks help build more training, which means faster units.

Up north, 10 turns should have you settled those other two city sites. Again, build worker-unit-unit-specialist-unit-unit-etc in those to assist with defending the south. Have some slingers and warriors on city site clearing duties and settle as you clear them. For my 3rd family I would pick Sages. They are the tech generating family. In their family seat I would use a different build order: worker-inquiry-inquiry-specialist-inquiry-etc. Do inquiries instead of units. You'll zip through the tech tree as a result.

Basically, the first 20 turns your goal is to found 4 cities and get some units on the ground. Techs you want to have iron working and trapping (warrior and slinger) plus a discontent management tech (divination or drama) if you don't have Clerics family, and maybe even labor force or military drill (for roads and barracks). This period is when you are in major suck up mode with the AI. Do whatever it takes to keep them cautious or better. You leader's influence mission can really help here too.

 

[Dale]

Great reply Dale, your experience shows and is really helpful to us lesser skilled mortals. I'd like to add a couple of small tricks I have discovered in a year of "noobie" play, usually at level 3 (Good) against 3 or 4 AI.

I usually play as Rome or Greece. When configuring the game startup, go to the bottom of the advanced settings and set the AI development advantage to none otherwise the AI starts with a 3 city advantage which I think is grossly unfair to a beginner.

Add a promotion to every unit you build. The added strength is definitely noticeable. Two promoted warriors will usually take out a barb/tribe camp and it's guard in three or four turns {except for the Danes.They are tough and prolific.I wouldn't start messing with them until I had all my cities well protected). If you take one of their camps they will attack one or two of your cities within a couple of turns.

And yes, stop thinking you're playing Civ.

I find Rome fun to steam roll. They really are the military nation.
It should be noted, that if you play The Able difficulty (the difficulty for new players) the AI starts on the lowest aggression and lowest development level. At The Great, the AI is super aggressive and starts with an average of 6 cities.

Remember, you are a brand new nation, little more than a tribe, entering a world filled with already developed nations. It's your job to create your nation, grow it and make your mark against all these old established nations.

 

[Dale]

Don't forget to add Generals, especially your Leader. If s/he is a Tactician, s/he can Stun enemy units.

Romulus (Rome) is a tactician so stuns when a general of a unit. It basically means that Romulus on the initial warrior can take out camps by himself as a stunned unit cannot attack on their turn. At least until that second unit pops from the camp.
Philip (Greece) is a commander so gets +20% attack/defense is the same type of unit is next to him. So it's great to have 2 warriors, Philip as general of one of them, and keeping both units side by side when taking out camps.

 

[steveg700]

This is a tremendous help and far more than I had any reason to expect.

I did go with artisans first for the free worker. However, the free garrison the champions provide is tempting too, because otherwise it's a long time before any governors can be appointed.

What's the priority on lumbermills to start getting wood without buying it or de-scrubbing?

 

[Reckoner]

Great writing Dale, Thanks!
I'm wondering about adding the honey to your land long before you can improve it - wouldn't it be better to keep it outside your borders for a while so you can keep harvesting it?

 

[steveg700]

Well, after an all-nighter, I enjoyed myself but am coming to the assessment I initially had during the open beta.

It's just too oblique as to relationships. Do trade missions, and the terms are always terrible yet I take them. And ultimately all the missions and marriages just don't seem to be enough. I'll look back at someone I think I'm developing a relationship, and boom they're angry. No notification of the deterioration. Many of the civ's aren't even close to have border disputes. Diplomacy feels less like a dangerous balancing act than just a way to extend the time spent circling the drain.

And the combat can be very obtuse as well. A unit will just disappear, killed somehow, no enemy melee units showing damage and no ranged units in sight.

Tribes can be made friends with, but what's the point if the AI is just going to wipe them in an effort have every available city-site. And the friendly relationships don't translate in the ability to bolster their ability to fend of the AI, or simply peacefully convert the their camps. Maybe that stuff is buried in techs or laws somesuch.

Lot of fun stuff, just too much focus on viral expansion rather developing a well-connected, efficient network of quality cities. Not a game of golden eras of peace and trade. Or maybe it just takes a lot of trial to figure out all the stuff that's abstruse.

Lot of cool concepts that I do really admire though. I like that you accrue resources with mines and mills, not just generating abstract production. I like that there's sort of a minigame with specialists, and that tech progression is random and can offer freebies, and the various jobs you can give your citizens.

EDIT: Under the submenus, I found I can hover over "angry" or whatever the current mood is and see what's pissing them off. Looks like differences in traits are weighted heavily. So a guy's a schemer, you're a judge. AND LITERALLY EVERY AI LEADER IS A SCHEMER. Cute. -60 each. More cognomens, another -40.

 

[Elhoim]

BTW, I really like that in the advanced options you can set-up a more "Civ" game by having the AI starting with a single city, just like you. In general, I like to play in the highest difficulty but AI set to have no development. So it's a bit more of an "internal" challenge to keep your cities running instead of playing catch up with the more advanced players. In any case, the game is great with the options, so play around to find your sweet spot =)

 

[steveg700]

After figuring out how to view negative diplo modifiers, I have picked the game back up and having a bit of an easier time straining the diplomatic soup.

Pretty much every civ will have its own religion. So if I do, I just have to accept a pile of negative modifiers for that. And then a negative modifier for being, another for any diplomatic efforts they note are aimed at civ's other than themselves, another for playing well ("more ,cognomens"). Trades\ missions still seem to be garbage, with them always offering either money or materials in exchange for the more valuable assets of Science, Civics, Order, or Training. Lame.

Basically assume you have to get out form under at leas -100 worth of negative modifiers that you can't really do squat about.

I'm sill trying to figure how the hell to construct anything in a timely fashion. How much of a city is intended to be made of barracks just to produce one phalanxite in less than a decade????????????

Ditto goes for settlers. I guess they scale up in cost as in Civ.

Also, is there some way to arrange diplomatic marriages with someone other than your leader?

 

[Dale]

Great writing Dale, Thanks!
I'm wondering about adding the honey to your land long before you can improve it - wouldn't it be better to keep it outside your borders for a while so you can keep harvesting it?

I tend to keep my scouts out further and find the AI harvesting on me. Probably my bad there. Really for me it's removing the opportunity for the AI to do it.

 

[Dale]

Well, after an all-nighter, I enjoyed myself but am coming to the assessment I initially had during the open beta.

It's just too oblique as to relationships. Do trade missions, and the terms are always terrible yet I take them. And ultimately all the missions and marriages just don't seem to be enough. I'll look back at someone I think I'm developing a relationship, and boom they're angry. No notification of the deterioration. Many of the civ's aren't even close to have border disputes. Diplomacy feels less like a dangerous balancing act than just a way to extend the time spent circling the drain.

And the combat can be very obtuse as well. A unit will just disappear, killed somehow, no enemy melee units showing damage and no ranged units in sight.

Tribes can be made friends with, but what's the point if the AI is just going to wipe them in an effort have every available city-site. And the friendly relationships don't translate in the ability to bolster their ability to fend of the AI, or simply peacefully convert the their camps. Maybe that stuff is buried in techs or laws somesuch.

Lot of fun stuff, just too much focus on viral expansion rather developing a well-connected, efficient network of quality cities. Not a game of golden eras of peace and trade. Or maybe it just takes a lot of trial to figure out all the stuff that's abstruse.

Lot of cool concepts that I do really admire though. I like that you accrue resources with mines and mills, not just generating abstract production. I like that there's sort of a minigame with specialists, and that tech progression is random and can offer freebies, and the various jobs you can give your citizens.

EDIT: Under the submenus, I found I can hover over "angry" or whatever the current mood is and see what's pissing them off. Looks like differences in traits are weighted heavily. So a guy's a schemer, you're a judge. AND LITERALLY EVERY AI LEADER IS A SCHEMER. Cute. -60 each. More cognomens, another -40.

When you say relationships are difficulty, do you mean foreign relations? Do you have an ambassador to assist with? Any trade offer from the AI is going to benefit them. Though to be fair, I hardly ever use trade missions. With other nations I prefer to use the spy master and spy missions.

In the notification icons it will list attacks against your units (falshing sword swish icon) and unit deaths (skull icon). Left clicking will rotate round each unit affected. Units have 20 hit points. On attack units take only 1 point of damage (ranged none obviously). Units cannot move after attack, the rout ability only gives the chance to attack an adjacent unit as a second attack.

Friends with tribes doesn't give you anything except a lower chance of raid from that tribe. It also blocks a tribe invasion. If you have a diplomat leader, you can form a tribe alliance. A tribe alliance is when you can settle that tribe's city sites peacefully and take them over.

I've won plenty of games with around 6-8 cities focusing on strong growth and ambitions. Yes, you will be in wars. Yes, there will be periods of peace. I've had games where I warred maybe once or twice, and then other games where it was almost constant war.

Opinions will take some getting used to. But they do work well once you starting clicking how they work. There are the traditional type of "good vs bad" trait combos (like schemer and judge), but I don't believe the everyone is a schemer comment. At the moment my opponent nation leaders are Orator, General, General, Judge, Commander. Don't forget you have influence missions to counter negative opinions.

After figuring out how to view negative diplo modifiers, I have picked the game back up and having a bit of an easier time straining the diplomatic soup.

Pretty much every civ will have its own religion. So if I do, I just have to accept a pile of negative modifiers for that. And then a negative modifier for being, another for any diplomatic efforts they note are aimed at civ's other than themselves, another for playing well ("more ,cognomens"). Trades\ missions still seem to be garbage, with them always offering either money or materials in exchange for the more valuable assets of Science, Civics, Order, or Training. Lame.

Basically assume you have to get out form under at leas -100 worth of negative modifiers that you can't really do squat about.

I'm sill trying to figure how the hell to construct anything in a timely fashion. How much of a city is intended to be made of barracks just to produce one phalanxite in less than a decade????????????

Ditto goes for settlers. I guess they scale up in cost as in Civ.

Also, is there some way to arrange diplomatic marriages with someone other than your leader?

Every nation has their own Pagan religion. There are only four World religions which usually end up with nations who take Cleric families. Don't forget you can manage religions in mid game on with the Tolerance-Orthodoxy law choice. Tolerance allows multiple religions more harmony, whilst orthodoxy allows your disciples to purge non-state religions.

It is possible to have nation alliances. Look at the individual things making up the opinion. Other nations like peace treaties and opinion rises each year the treaty holds. Other nations also really like it when you attack their enemies too. A big one is to marry someone from the other nation. That raises opinion a lot. Having the same state religion is a positive opinion generator too.

Units need training to build them. Also, don't forget to put specialists (up to 3) in each barracks. Some cities will literally take 10-15 years to make a unit. But remember once they hit developing, you can rush buy. Also put a Governor in the city with really high training output. Improvements give you a good base, but it's all about the specialists.

Settlers scale up in price yes.

Hope this helps somehow.

 

[steveg700]

When you say relationships are difficulty, do you mean foreign relations? Do you have an ambassador to assist with? Any trade offer from the AI is going to benefit them. Though to be fair, I hardly ever use trade missions. With other nations I prefer to use the spy master and spy missions.

I was referring to foreign relations, and mostly not wanting to be at war on multiple fronts if it can be helped. Negative opinions are both large and persistent, in contrast to positive opinions seem to fade with the passage of time. It seems that it is largely about amassing whatever luxuries you can and giving them away fpr +40 opinion each, and then gifting them lots of worthless food for +2 opinion per click.

On the issue of luxuries, is there any other use for luxuries other than gifting them for nothing other than a diplo bonus? Does possessing a luxury actually provide any kind of benefit like reducing discontent? I mean, they don't provide a benefit, it makes no sense for their possession to be coveted. Is there some way for me to negotiate for them with other civ's?

In the notification icons it will list attacks against your units (falshing sword swish icon) and unit deaths (skull icon). Left clicking will rotate round each unit affected. Units have 20 hit points. On attack units take only 1 point of damage (ranged none obviously). Units cannot move after attack, the rout ability only gives the chance to attack an adjacent unit as a second attack.

Combat could use an overhaul. The way movement works often amounts to units coming far beyond line of sight and focusing fire on one hapless unit. It's a shortcoming of all turn-based tactical games, but the way orders and forced marches work in TOW really exacerbate the problem. A unit that might have taken a decade to build gets obliterated without seeing any action, and the attackers only lose 1 HP no matter the relative strength? This is something I wish had gotten some revision since I last played.

So there are a bunch of little details to combat that bear explanation. Little feet is movement, that's easy. Shield is defense, sword is attack--so far so good. Lightning bolt is...crit chance, I guess? And there's some kind of inscrutable chevronesque symbol that seems to indicate both attack and defense strength, I think.

Seems highly desirable to have a Hero general for each relevant family, as this general can heal and be swapped over to another unit in the same turn. That's pretty decisive relative to other military careers. Not even sure what Zealot does. "Won't die under 2 HP" or something like that. I guess it means the general itself can't be killed until the unit is killed.

Friends with tribes doesn't give you anything except a lower chance of raid from that tribe. It also blocks a tribe invasion. If you have a diplomat leader, you can form a tribe alliance. A tribe alliance is when you can settle that tribe's city sites peacefully and take them over.

So I did note that one of the tribal camps developed and its units became elite clubthrowers. Quite a rude surprise when my trio of spearmen marched up with their big-boy pants on. And then POOF, a Warlord appeared. Crtl+Z, thank you very much. That's pretty cool, but with expansion uncapped and friendly tribal relations providing no short term benefits, a tribe's chance of surviving that long does seem pretty well hedged against.

Good to know about the tribal alliances. Maybe I'll give it a shot with that camp.

]Opinions will take some getting used to. But they do work well once you starting clicking how they work. There are the traditional type of "good vs bad" trait combos (like schemer and judge), but I don't believe the everyone is a schemer comment. At the moment my opponent nation leaders are Orator, General, General, Judge, Commander. Don't forget you have influence missions to counter negative opinions.

Yeap, six other civ's, six Schemers at once. They did all die off eventually....some of which were replaced with Heroe's to hate my prince who grew up to be a Builder

Good to know Schemer not the norm (although Schemer does seem to be particularly common).

Every nation has their own Pagan religion. There are only four World religions which usually end up with nations who take Cleric families. Don't forget you can manage religions in mid game on with the Tolerance-Orthodoxy law choice. Tolerance allows multiple religions more harmony, whilst orthodoxy allows your disciples to purge non-state religions.

I haven't pursued any religion tech, and it seems a disciple is not much use without them. I did build the Big Temple, but now the disciples just spool up every 20 turns with a long menu of greyed-out options. They don't have anything to do that doesn't cost either hundreds of Civics or techs I ain't got. I guess I'm also supposed to march them into other civ's and convert their cities, but it doesn't seem like something foreign civ's will be happy to have me do.

It is possible to have nation alliances. Look at the individual things making up the opinion. Other nations like peace treaties and opinion rises each year the treaty holds. Other nations also really like it when you attack their enemies too. A big one is to marry someone from the other nation. That raises opinion a lot. Having the same state religion is a positive opinion generator too.

Yeah in my efforts to curry favor with Rome, I've done diplomatic marriages every generation. Marriages between other members have occurred, but it seems that only happens through events. Likewise, foreign civ's like having their people on the counicl, but that also seems event-driven rather than anything I can initiate.

On National Alliances: I always see a requirement that the leader has to be a Diplomat. Is that not an absolute?

Units need training to build them. Also, don't forget to put specialists (up to 3) in each barracks. Some cities will literally take 10-15 years to make a unit. But remember once they hit developing, you can rush buy. Also put a Governor in the city with really high training output. Improvements give you a good base, but it's all about the specialists.

So, I do always build garrisons and barracks, and then a military officer. However, upgrading specialists from apprentice seems to not produce a significant bump in yields.

Hope this helps somehow.

Definitely. Even aside from the insightful remarks, the game is sufficiently fascinating to enjoy discussion.

 

[Dale]

I was referring to foreign relations, and mostly not wanting to be at war on multiple fronts if it can be helped. Negative opinions are both large and persistent, in contrast to positive opinions seem to fade with the passage of time. It seems that it is largely about amassing whatever luxuries you can and giving them away fpr +40 opinion each, and then gifting them lots of worthless food for +2 opinion per click.

There is a lot of downward pressure, but it is possible to manage.

On the issue of luxuries, is there any other use for luxuries other than gifting them for nothing other than a diplo bonus? Does possessing a luxury actually provide any kind of benefit like reducing discontent? I mean, they don't provide a benefit, it makes no sense for their possession to be coveted. Is there some way for me to negotiate for them with other civ's?

Unfortunately you can't request specific item trade deals. You trigger the mission then get offered a couple of choices. Luxuries can also be given to your families to help appease them. On the religion/family tab look on the family bar. You should see two greyed out luxuries. These are favoured luxuries by those families and if you supply them it's an awesome boost.

Combat could use an overhaul. The way movement works often amounts to units coming far beyond line of sight and focusing fire on one hapless unit. It's a shortcoming of all turn-based tactical games, but the way orders and forced marches work in TOW really exacerbate the problem. A unit that might have taken a decade to build gets obliterated without seeing any action, and the attackers only lose 1 HP no matter the relative strength? This is something I wish had gotten some revision since I last played.

Can I ask if you are using your scouts to provide coverage of the opposition? If you park a scout on a forest tile it's invisible and provides LOS over a good chunk of land. I will always use 3-4 scouts out in the middle of my enemies lands to avoid any such surprise. It sounds like you just don't have visibility of what's happening on the other side, so get surprised when their forces charge in.

Combat is one of the areas I really enjoy in OW. I'm not that good, but I rather enjoy it.

So there are a bunch of little details to combat that bear explanation. Little feet is movement, that's easy. Shield is defense, sword is attack--so far so good. Lightning bolt is...crit chance, I guess? And there's some kind of inscrutable chevronesque symbol that seems to indicate both attack and defense strength, I think.

Hover the mouse over the icon, should explain what they are.

Seems highly desirable to have a Hero general for each relevant family, as this general can heal and be swapped over to another unit in the same turn. That's pretty decisive relative to other military careers. Not even sure what Zealot does. "Won't die under 2 HP" or something like that. I guess it means the general itself can't be killed until the unit is killed.

Zealot has the ability that if the unit they're on has more than 1 HP, it cannot be killed that turn. EG: Zealot general on a warrior with 3 HP left. Unit gets hit for 5 damage, it's left with 1 HP so you can retreat and heal it.

So I did note that one of the tribal camps developed and its units became elite clubthrowers. Quite a rude surprise when my trio of spearmen marched up with their big-boy pants on. And then POOF, a Warlord appeared. Crtl+Z, thank you very much. That's pretty cool, but with expansion uncapped and friendly tribal relations providing no short term benefits, a tribe's chance of surviving that long does seem pretty well hedged against.

Tribes are just keeping your city sites warm. That is all.

Yeap, six other civ's, six Schemers at once. They did all die off eventually....some of which were replaced with Heroe's to hate my prince who grew up to be a Builder

Good to know Schemer not the norm (although Schemer does seem to be particularly common).

I'd say that was just curse of the RNG.

I haven't pursued any religion tech, and it seems a disciple is not much use without them. I did build the Big Temple, but now the disciples just spool up every 20 turns with a long menu of greyed-out options. They don't have anything to do that doesn't cost either hundreds of Civics or techs I ain't got. I guess I'm also supposed to march them into other civ's and convert their cities, but it doesn't seem like something foreign civ's will be happy to have me do.

Foreign nations don't mind other religions. In fact, it's totally possible to spread your religion around all their cities, then watch them change to you as more of their characters convert. Except when they are pursuing Orthodoxy. Then don't even bother trying to get in their cities. You'll notice that because they'll purge your religion out of their cities.

Yeah in my efforts to curry favor with Rome, I've done diplomatic marriages every generation. Marriages between other members have occurred, but it seems that only happens through events. Likewise, foreign civ's like having their people on the counicl, but that also seems event-driven rather than anything I can initiate.

On National Alliances: I always see a requirement that the leader has to be a Diplomat. Is that not an absolute?

Yes, alliances can only be done by Diplomat leaders.

So, I do always build garrisons and barracks, and then a military officer. However, upgrading specialists from apprentice seems to not produce a significant bump in yields.

One of the main thing specialists does do is maintain your population density. You can have one citizen (green box) per urban tile. If you have more you get overcrowding and major discontent penalty. Counter that by building urban improvements (or urban tiles as a Builder) or promoting specialists.

To end, a long time civer and friend of mine, known around Civ sites as Velocyrx, has started posting some yubtubs on the first 50 turns of each nation. You mind find some assistance on how to work with foreign opinions.

 

[nolegskitten]

Hi, there's a lot to learn/teach about this game, and sadly as it's just out of EA we don't have great guides out there yet. I just proposed to set-up some dedicated "learn the game and ask your questions" sessions here.

I also intend to write dedicated guides (for those of us who'd rather have a good read), but please be a bit patient with that: writing a good guide takes quite a bit of effort even if one knows one's stuff. It's also sometimes hard to remember the things you found counter-intuitive when you started after you've played the game a long time, so it takes feedback and browsing the community to know the most relevant questions to answer.

 

[steveg700]

Can I ask if you are using your scouts to provide coverage of the opposition? If you park a scout on a forest tile it's invisible and provides LOS over a good chunk of land. I will always use 3-4 scouts out in the middle of my enemies lands to avoid any such surprise. It sounds like you just don't have visibility of what's happening on the other side, so get surprised when their forces charge in.

Combat is one of the areas I really enjoy in OW. I'm not that good, but I rather enjoy it.

My issue isn't about visibility. It's about forced marches affording units bank-check movement. Attempt to screen ranged units with melee, and enemy units will just swing a wide arc around the screen thanks to effectively unlimited movement.

Try to move a wounded unit off, they have the capability to run it down as long as they keep dumping those orders (and they're not fatigued already). Like I said, focused fire (that is to say, dogpiling attacks on a single unit until it's dead) is a rather annoying aspect of turn-based combat, and modern games need to have proper counters. In RTS, it would be harder to get away with this because opponents can react and intercept. Zones of control mean little when units have the ability to teleport every other turn, which is what forced marches tend to amount to.

Zealot has the ability that if the unit they're on has more than 1 HP, it cannot be killed that turn. EG: Zealot general on a warrior with 3 HP left. Unit gets hit for 5 damage, it's left with 1 HP so you can retreat and heal it.

Ah, so just like Heroes can be shuffled around to heal units, Zealots can be passed around to wounded units for some protection. The zealots also provide extra fatigue, so I guess that means teleporting two turns in a row. Useful, albeit not without some margin of push-your-luck risk.

Foreign nations don't mind other religions. In fact, it's totally possible to spread your religion around all their cities, then watch them change to you as more of their characters convert. Except when they are pursuing Orthodoxy. Then don't even bother trying to get in their cities. You'll notice that because they'll purge your religion out of their cities.

Religion is completely opaque to me. The tutorial has nothing to say about it. Is there a dedicated panel for religion somewhere?

I'm getting a disciple every 20 turns from the temple, but after building that temple my disciples ideal with nothing to do thanks to a menu of greyed-out actiions. I founded Zoroastrianism in the capital, but my cities have flipped to Greek Paganism or Judaism. I have no idea where the push-and-pull, what forces are causing different cities or individuals to convert.

I try to use the disciples like apostles in Civ to spread the religion, only to find that the religion has already spread to whatever city I march them up to. But the city is following some other nation's religion, so something is causing Zoroastrianism to peter out that the disciple cannot influence . I can only guess that there is not much to off-the-shelf religion without certain techs, laws, or leader traits.

One of the main thing specialists does do is maintain your population density. You can have one citizen (green box) per urban tile. If you have more you get overcrowding and major discontent penalty. Counter that by building urban improvements (or urban tiles as a Builder) or promoting specialists.

To end, a long time civer and friend of mine, known around Civ sites as Velocyrx, has started posting some yubtubs on the first 50 turns of each nation. You mind find some assistance on how to work with foreign opinions.

More good intel on something I wouldn't have figured out easily. So, you're referring to urban specialists. What is the impact of rural specialists on this overcrowding and discontent?

Look forward to the vids.

 

[steveg700]

Hi, there's a lot to learn/teach about this game, and sadly as it's just out of EA we don't have great guides out there yet. I just proposed to set-up some dedicated "learn the game and ask your questions" sessions here.

I also intend to write dedicated guides (for those of us who'd rather have a good read), but please be a bit patient with that: writing a good guide takes quite a bit of effort even if one knows one's stuff. It's also sometimes hard to remember the things you found counter-intuitive when you started after you've played the game a long time, so it takes feedback and browsing the community to know the most relevant questions to answer.

Well, the most emphatic feedback that should be taken to heart stems from the legibility issues. I now actually have a blister on my stomach from all the leaning in I have to read the tiny, tiny text on my 15" laptop lol (yea, TMI, sorry...). No matter how exquisitely refined the rest of the game is, physical discomfort is a serious obstacle to sustained playability.

I am sure a lot of the advice I'm asking for stems from the physical difficulty in spotting it for myself. Adjusting resolution doesn't seem to make a difference. I was encouraged to see an accessibility tab under Options, but they're limited to color contrast settings. Fonts need to scalable, or at least some way to make them bolder and more distinct.

My eyesight's pretty bad, but I can't be the only person in that camp. I hope some improvement's are in the works.