Theocracy should work like Mercantilism

[Virulent]

Right now when you adopt Mercantilism all foreign corporations 'disappear' and reappear when you pick something else. The same thing should happen with Theocracy where all non-state religions should temporary disappear from your cities until a different civic is chosen. In particular this would be useful for:

-Denying shrine income to a rival

-Preventing fluke AP diplo wins. If a Civ adopts a non-AP religion Theocracy then no AP diplo victory is possible. The risk of course is that they risk all AP civs declaring war on them via AP resolutions.

Any thoughts?

 

[GenocideBringer]

I approve.

 

[0R4NG3]

This would also have a negative effect since you wouldn't be able to build religious buildings for non-state religions, meaning less happiness, which is ok late-game, but early to mid-game can be rather crippling. Otherwise an interesting idea.

 

[TheLastOne36]

yah i agree to.

 

[Dominico]

I disagree, just because its a theocracy doesnt mean other religions dont exist. There are still other religions, just one religion dominates and makes the rules, their religious leaders making the rules.

 

[King of Town]

I like the denying shrine income. There should be some way to do that. LIke you can use the inquisitors to take a religion out of your town. I hate that I am sponsoring my rval.

 

[Jedoc]

I disagree, just because its a theocracy doesnt mean other religions dont exist. There are still other religions, just one religion dominates and makes the rules, their religious leaders making the rules.

Well, yeah. But if we're talking about real life examples vs. gameplay mechanics, a mercantile government is probably going to be more tolerant of foreign corporations than a theocratic government will be of foreign religions. I mean, the main weapon a mercantile government uses to avoid trade deficit is tariffs. Which might be effective, but not when compared with, for example, large crowds of people throwing stones, government officials burning people at the stake, and nuns glaring at one in a very stern manner. So it's within the realm of reason, so long as we're going by the sort of reason that values good gameplay over real world facts.

That said, I'd definitely play a mod that included this Theocracy model. I suspect the consequences might be more far-reaching than they seem.

 

[Jedoc]

I like the denying shrine income. There should be some way to do that. LIke you can use the inquisitors to take a religion out of your town. I hate that I am sponsoring my rval.

Ooh. You know, that might be a better way of handling it. Running Theocracy allows you to build an Inquisitor unit that would function as a sort of anti-missionary. Pop him in one of your own cities, and you have a chance of prying out a random non-state religion. Perhaps you could even set it up so that it used the reverse of the missionary's chance to succeed roll...the fewer religions there are in a city, the harder it is to get rid of one, since a larger proportion of the citizens would tend to belong to it. That would force you to put out a reasonable outlay of hammers in order to cleanse your lands of heresy.

Plus, the ability to voluntarily free yourself from the mad whims of the Apostolic Palace would be a boon. Besides, I've never really been the object of a holy war before. Might be good times.

And ironically, the most satisfying religion to use the Inquisitor on would be whatever brand of shrieking insanity Izzy happens to be spamming that day. See, cause nobody expects the Spanish...ahh, you know the rest.

 

[tucnymaster]

Theocracy should remove the effect of the Apostolic Palace only if you remove all religions with inquisitor.

 

[Evil Twin]

I disagree, just because its a theocracy doesnt mean other religions dont exist. There are still other religions, just one religion dominates and makes the rules, their religious leaders making the rules.

Wrong. Spain under Isabella and Ferdinand ruthlessly oppressed non-Christian religions, in particular Jews and Muslims (though some pockets of Islam remained no doubt because the rulers enjoyed the lavish arabic palaces like the Alhambra, much to Torquemada's chagrin).
Catholic England under Queen Mary attempted to exterminate Protestantism, and then Protestant England afterwards did the same to Catholics.
Iran under the Ayatollah Khameni did not tolerate the presence of any religion that was not hardline Islam. I don't think the situation there is much better today mind you.

All all these examples, non-state religions were removed or forced into hiding. This is in fact exactly how a Theocracy should work in Civ.

 

[LightSpectra]

Also, if you're running Theocracy, any city you conquer automatically acquires your state religion.

 

[Virulent]

Ooh. You know, that might be a better way of handling it. Running Theocracy allows you to build an Inquisitor unit that would function as a sort of anti-missionary. Pop him in one of your own cities, and you have a chance of prying out a random non-state religion. Perhaps you could even set it up so that it used the reverse of the missionary's chance to succeed roll...the fewer religions there are in a city, the harder it is to get rid of one, since a larger proportion of the citizens would tend to belong to it. That would force you to put out a reasonable outlay of hammers in order to cleanse your lands of heresy.

Plus, the ability to voluntarily free yourself from the mad whims of the Apostolic Palace would be a boon. Besides, I've never really been the object of a holy war before. Might be good times.

And ironically, the most satisfying religion to use the Inquisitor on would be whatever brand of shrieking insanity Izzy happens to be spamming that day. See, cause nobody expects the Spanish...ahh, you know the rest.

I was thinking about that but the problem with an inquisitor unit is that Firaxis/2K might get some flack for having a game where where you can have such things as having an Islamic theocracy using inquisitors to drive out all the Jews and Christians. Gods of Old got away with inquisitors because it had religions nobody currently follows.

My idea of having Theocracy making all non-state religions disappear until you change civics again has a similar effect of an inquisitor unit but abstract enough so it wouldn't be likely to offend people.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Actually, i think Theocracy 'nullifying' foreign religions sounds very good (as one can argue the government might not wipe them out but it can drive them underground (so they don't get to build any Temples, cathedrals, or Monasteries

 

[Eikka]

I agree, the ¨people who are in wrong faith¨ (not in your state religion.) The state ¨hunt¨ (pursue) those and the religion disappears (but if you switch that, they aren't ¨hunted¨ anymore.)

 

[bonafide11]

I disagree, I think foreign religions in a theocratic state should cause unhappiness. -1 unhappiness for each non-state religion for "denying us the right to practice our faith." I always thought that should be the case, wouldn't people of other faiths have a problem with a theocracy? Of course, the remedy is to just build them a temple, which allows them to practice their faith.

 

[BYC]

I approve of religious purges.

 

[Peng Qi]

I was thinking about that but the problem with an inquisitor unit is that Firaxis/2K might get some flack for having a game where where you can have such things as having an Islamic theocracy using inquisitors to drive out all the Jews and Christians. Gods of Old got away with inquisitors because it had religions nobody currently follows.

They could just not make it an inquisitor unit. How about if you use a state religion missionary in a city that already has that missionary's religion while in Theocracy, it instead attempts to "convert" another religion out of the city? Then they can avoid the "OMG INQUISITIONS IN A GAME! BOYCOTT!" and still have that gameplay element.

 

[PibbZ]

i agree aswell, it would work like a charm with my playstyle

 

[rarr]

They could just not make it an inquisitor unit. How about if you use a state religion missionary in a city that already has that missionary's religion while in Theocracy, it instead attempts to "convert" another religion out of the city? Then they can avoid the "OMG INQUISITIONS IN A GAME! BOYCOTT!" and still have that gameplay element.

The Charlemagne scenario already features an inquisitor, for getting rid of Islam. It could easily be adapted to the main game.

 

[Soneji]

I would like the option to remove a religion from a city totally (even if it meant using hammers, or something or unit) with obviously a hit with the holy city civ.