This is OUTRAGEOUS: Rep hit for no reason!

[Lucky Dragon]

I had a trade agreement with Persia, who was on another continent. Subsequently, they got in a war with the Iroquois. In the course of this war, Persia lost their only city with a seaport. Since my trade deal with them had not expired when this occured, I TOOK A REP HIT!!!!!!!!
This is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. It's already waaaaay too difficult to maintain a good reputation, but it's downright unconsienable for the game to hold me responsible for something that another civ did!
This really, really, REALLY needs to be fixed in Conquests and the next patch for Civ3 and PtW.
[In the meantime, I'm going to gear up to exterminate the Iroquois for screwing me over like that.] :die:

 

[slothman]

Basically if it didn't happen during your turn than it can't be your fault.

 

[Lucky Dragon]

Exactly: which is why I was so pissed when it happened. I'd really like to see them change the system so that if you commit some minor infraction they would eventually forget about it. Kind of like how the DMV deletes speeding tickets from your driving record after five years. It's grossly unfair that the AIs make deals with EACH OTHER with few problems, in spite of the fact that they're constantly backstabbing one another, and yet if the human player messes up even ONCE, he's not trusted for the rest of the game, regardless of his subsequent track record.

I'd be very surprised if they actually made such a major change to the diplomacy system at this stage, but at the very least, I'd like to see this one issue corrected.

 

[Pembroke]

If you bought something from a company and they shipped it on a truck that gots robbed on the way then it isn't the fault of the company, BUT they still are responsible for the shipment. They can't just say "tough luck and have a nice day" when you ask them what happened to your purchase. Instead they send you a replacement or if that's not possible then a refund and perhaps even something extra for the inconvenience to keep you as their customer in the future.

And that's what's missing in Civ3: Recompensation.

The reputation in Civ3 has the job to prevent the human from swindling the AI blind.

What ought to have happened in the above situation of Persia losing his last harbor is this:

Iroquise conquer the Persian harbor city. A trade negotiation window opens:

Xerxes: "Your shipments did not arrive. Are you trying to cheat us? We demand as recompensation the following."

Persia gives: <nothing>
You give: 50 gold

The recompensation value would be calculated as the value left in the deal for the remaining turns. If you agree to pay then you don't take a rep-hit. You dealed with them honorably the proof being that you were willing to pay the fair value of the screwed trade deal.

Recompensation would solve the inherent problem of the game having to know when something was your fault and when it wasn't. If you really did intent to swindle the AI then it makes no sense for you to pay recompensation so you take a rep hit. If you didn't intent to cheat then you are also willing to recompensate your trading partner and so don't deserve to get a rep hit.

As a side note: consider a situation where you first fought a war with Persia dragging the Iroquise to the war. At the time the alliance deal ends you have arranged the situation so that the only trade route between you and Persia goes through a single harbor city that is sure to fall to the Iroquise in the next 2-3 turns. Then you make peace with Persia and give him a sweet per turn deal for hard cash and techs.

Now tell me: When the Iroquise capture the harbor city cutting the trade route would you deserve a rep hit or not?

You know, humans can sometimes be really devious...

However, if the rep hit was conditional upon not paying recompensation then you'd only get the rep hit when you really deserved it. Which is the whole point of having rep hits in the first place.

 

[Lucky Dragon]

Originally posted by Pembroke
If you bought something from a company and they shipped it on a truck that gots robbed on the way then it isn't the fault of the company, BUT they still are responsible for the shipment. They can't just say "tough luck and have a nice day" when you ask them what happened to your purchase.

But who's out for replacement costs on the stolen item? The shipping company is resposnible for items in their custody, so they call their insurance company and file a claim...
This would be kind of difficult to model in a computer game.

And that's what's missing in Civ3: Recompensation.

The reputation in Civ3 has the job to prevent the human from swindling the AI blind.

No, what's mising is a simple risk-analysis algoithm. For example:
Persia is not currently at war with anyone, and they have several seaports. Therefore the value of their tradeable goods is "normal". If they were at war, then the game should factor in their army strength vs. the army strength of their opponent(s), # of ports remanining, etc, and adjust their asking price accordingly, If they're in desperate straits, they need more compensation for their trade goods, so they would then ask a higher price for those goods UP FRONT. If I'm unwilling to pay that price I can simply do without the goods.
It wouldn't be all THAT difficult to do this.

As a side note: consider a situation where you first fought a war with Persia dragging the Iroquise to the war. At the time the alliance deal ends you have arranged the situation so that the only trade route between you and Persia goes through a single harbor city that is sure to fall to the Iroquise in the next 2-3 turns.

A prorate would solve this issue. Factors that the AI would take into consideration:
-Number of troops in their army
-Attack/Defense strength of their troops vs. their enemies
-number of seaports/airports.
This would work for the player too: if you were in a difficult situation fighting several opponents and one of the AIs needed a resource or tech that you had, they would offer you more for it.
BTW: there's also a related problem with the current reputation system: If I make an alliacne with one civ against another, and then we destroy our enemy before the alliance expires, I get a rep. hit. (For welshing on an alliance ) That one also needs to be fixed.