Thoughts for SGOTM 14

[shyuhe]

I like the idea of a Mastery VC, but the issue for me is that such a game may drag on pretty deep into the game which may make time an issue for some teams (and players).

If we are going to do team based games, I would not put the human and an AI on the same team. It's not very fun when your teammate goes and settles a horribly placed city that blocks you from a great city spot. If you're just putting the AI on teams though, then I don't think the mechanic is all that different from giving the AI an extra settler or two to start the game.

 

[shyuhe]

Sorry to criticize Gumbolt, but your idea of no Great People is totally broken.
If you build or capture a wonder, even a NW, you will generate GP, no matter what you do. Obviously we can have a no-wonders-rule, which means that if you capture a city with a WW you must raze it. But such rule will be too much of an handicap for the human, i think.

No wonders is a winnable game -- I've done it on immortal (including no national wonders). You can also capture a city with wonders in it and gift it back to the AI if it is about to pop a GP. There are definitely ways to work around a no GP rule, but it won't be an easy game.

 

[Conquistador 63]

How about a game with all AI's teamed together (but not Always War)? Not sure about the difficulty level, AI choices, and the map setup to make it more enjoyable. Obviously, AP and UN wins would be disabled. Another possibility: 2 large AI teams? (3 or 4 AI's on each).

I would also like to have the possibility of picking a leader/starting spot from a shortlist, but I understand this would add too much randomness for the liking of most players here.

 

[BLubmuz]

I don't know how a game with AI teams and human+AI team can be.

But many problems can be solved placing the team members on different landmasses, reachable only after Astronomy or something.

A Mastery Victory can be possible, provided you use some trick.

 

[fizbankovi]

how about a game where the winning date is calculated as such:
the shortest time beetween apostic palast beeing built, and winning a UN victory wins.

 

[leif erikson]

Could play crowded Deity OCC (SGOTM7) with all the AI civs in the game. Last time the game was in vanilla and two of the top three won by diplo. Could try it in bts.

Also, who could ever forget SGOTM4 where, as the Vikings, you had to lose by Space Race.

 

[shyuhe]

A diplo game that limits the player to having 6 cities might be fun. Not sure if it'll be a pain to check the results for compliance though.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Also, who could ever forget SGOTM4 where, as the Vikings, you had to lose by Space Race.

On that vein, let's see if we can lose via a Domination Victory. It might be the first time (probably not, but one of the few times) that an AI will win such a Victory Condition. Certainly it would add a unique flavour to the game without necessarily requiring an extremely-long-played game.

 

[chopster]

That could be an interesting game - earliest loss to a specific civ by either any victory condition, or a specifically chosen victory condition.

 

[kossin]

Loss by Domination is basically a Domination game where you abandon within reach of victory

 

[bcool]

Perhaps a game where you have to establish a permanent alliance with an AI. Forces the game to go somewhat deep into the tech tree and there might not be an obvious victory condition that is best.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Loss by Domination is basically a Domination game where you abandon within reach of victory

Since people seem to be amenable to putting in place a few additional rules, particularly to reduce potential loopholes like the one that you have described, we could simply add the rule that we are not allowed to gift any Cities to any of the AIs, be it via a straight-up gift or be it via a Peace deal.

If you can find any more loopholes, please bring them up now, so that we can close them proactively.

 

[mabraham]

A rule about "no great people" and the possibility of accidental generation from wonders is easily covered - should you generate one, you must kill it immediately. Shouldn't be hard to police, if that was thought necessary.

Or if you want more spice, a big score penalty if you do generate such an accidental GP.

Need consideration in the rules for GP-generating techs, too.

The "loss" games also sound interesting

 

[kcd_swede]

You may only enter a new Era by stealing a technology to do so. (Space VC specified). Not sure this would apply for leaving the ancient era, so maybe start in medieval era.

 

[Habitus]

You could get round the Ancient - Classical by giving the player 2-5 Spies to start with I'd say 1, but a failure or it being found wouldn't be so good

*edit*

If Mastery Victory is used then Quick speed might be best as you need to play all the turns

How about a game you have to lose to every VC barring time.

 

[nocho]

Personally I'm not very keen on "loss-based" victory conditions, nor variants that outright take away an intrinsic part of the game (like "no great people").

So I'd rather have a normal VC with a good twist.

Something like

There could be other special victory conditions, not necessarily the ones fixed by the game... for example having all 7 religions in at least 10 cities.

as a side requirement next to a normal VC could work.

Or for instance having a city with at least one of each type of great person settled (including GG).

Or having a truly cosmopolitan city in the sense of requiring to have a city with all available normal buildings in the game (not wonders). With the 7 religions that could include all 3 religious buildings of each of those 7 religions... And of course academy, military academy and Sotland Yard, as well as at least 1 of each type of GP settled, to be truly cosmopolitan.

I don't fancy a space colony much as I find the early game the most interesting and having to rush through it to make sure you have enough time to complete the game is not appealing to me. Similarly with Culture, at one point it's just hitting enter 75 times.

To keep it interesting for the top dogs and in general in order to avoid having to go at least to computers (laboratory) and ecology (recycling centre), the "all buildings"-requirement could be in relation only to the techs researched. So if you have researched combustion for instance you need public transportation, but you don't need to tech further. Basically by end game, the city in question should not have any normal building available for the queue, just units and wonders (of course it could apply to any number of cities, if just 1 city would be deemed too easy).

I would like requiring all religious building though, including the cathedrals (but maybe only for the religions present, no need to spread all first). Likewise with requiring academy, MA and SY. I do fancy the settlement of all type of GPs as well, so as to force people to produce all different kinds (by popping or researching appropiate techs). A philosophical leader might help.

Oh well, just an idea. That's what the thread is for, right?

 

[mabraham]

To keep it interesting for the top dogs and in general in order to avoid having to go at least to computers (laboratory) and ecology (recycling centre), the "all buildings"-requirement could be in relation only to the techs researched. So if you have researched combustion for instance you need public transportation, but you don't need to tech further. Basically by end game, the city in question should not have any normal building available for the queue, just units and wonders (of course it could apply to any number of cities, if just 1 city would be deemed too easy).

People can go conquering with axes and cats and then build about four buildings in their capital at the death. That aspect of the idea needs work

Also, if there's some requirement to reach the late game, it's not a big twist to simply make your Ironworks city build every building. Even if you upped the number of cities that have to be "cosmopolitan", that's just putting a speed bump on a normal game.

 

[nocho]

People can go conquering with axes and cats and then build about four buildings in their capital at the death. That aspect of the idea needs work

Also, if there's some requirement to reach the late game, it's not a big twist to simply make your Ironworks city build every building. Even if you upped the number of cities that have to be "cosmopolitan", that's just putting a speed bump on a normal game.

Any variant of this type in the end is no more than a speedbumb!

The map shouldn't be such that axe+cats would be enough to conquer the world though. It also depends on overall VC. True however that the ordinary buildings might not pose too much of a problem, but combining it with the religious buildings makes it a bit harder (especially if all religions are required). That's also why I mentioned all the settled GPs to make it a bit tougher. Producing all different GPs requires some decent planning, especially when speed is essential. Whether it's fun is another matter. Maybe some of this could be incorporated in a broader idea.

 

[babybluepants]

I'm fan of games that either (like SGOTM 4,8 and 10) require an alternative manner of winning, or (like SGOTM 2,7,9,10 and 12 or the Santa BOTM) alter the start of the game enough to create a substantially different playing experience. Can't say I have any good ideas, nor that I'd necessarily wanna share them. Design by committee doesn't often result in quality.

Loss games:
Conquest is obviously ridiculous. Diplo and space strike me as no different from diplo and space wins - it's basically a tech race where you just give everything away to the AI and then wait for them to do the deed in the end, right? Domination sounds about the same, as kossin pointed out, except there might be some weirdness if you get the AI into financial trouble late game. Don't really know. Culture could be fun, as I suspect it would require some very different gameplay all the way through, rather than just at the end. On the other hand, the map would need to be really well done, as I'm not sure a culture win by AI is always very possible. Don't want multiple teams failing.

Adding requirements to a VC:
I think SGOTM 11 showed that these are really just an extra micromanagement chore at the end, and don't really alter gameplay much. We raced to Mass Media and, in the worst case scenario, might have needed to delay UN by a few turns to meet the GP requirement (that wasn't even the case). The interesting part of that game was the DOW limit.

Mastery victory:
Again reads like a headache towards the end. Basically, there is next to nothing you can't achieve once you get to near-domination with a tech lead. It can be pretty tedious to achieve some of those things, though.

All in all, I'd be happiest if Erkon or DS came up with something really interesting independently, and I'm happy to wait. No way we could have thought up SGOTM 12 in this kind of free-for-all discussion.

 

[mabraham]

I think SGOTM 11 showed that these are really just an extra micromanagement chore at the end, and don't really alter gameplay much. We raced to Mass Media and, in the worst case scenario, might have needed to delay UN by a few turns to meet the GP requirement (that wasn't even the case). The interesting part of that game was the DOW limit.

This just struck a chord with me. I also play Starcraft2, and educational webcaster Day9 has a regular feature he calls "Funday Monday" where he invites the audience to submit games they played under some fairly extreme constraint - like everyone on a team building only one kind of unit, or not permitting frontal assault, etc. He broadcasts a handful of the most entertaining games, and much hilarity ensues watching people struggle to win under the constraint. Often, something interesting is observed about the effectiveness of non-classical play under the right circumstances. He often seems to choose the constraint as a teaching tool, too.

I think some of this thinking could be transferred. Only having two DOWs is exactly the kind of constraint Day9 uses. The game's not broken, but you'll have to be cunning about dealing with the changed playing field.

So, here's some ideas that people may or may not think are in this vein:

• You may only have access to x resources. If you happen to acquire another over the maximum, you must redress the situation within y turns.
• You may not build any *tile* improvement that would access a resource if a route to your capital existed (but you can get "lucky" with tiles improved before you got the relevant tech, or by and AI, or on city tiles, or from events)
• OCC and 3CC are clearly of this type
• only x cottages may be worked by a city
• only x cottages may be worked by an empire
• workers may not build roads or railroads
• you must DOW someone on turns x, y and z
• you can't use metals
• you can't use slavery
• you must revolt exactly n times during the game
• you must get Alphabet by turn x, and then for every y techs you acquire, you must give one away
• a settler may only move 3 tiles
• a city can only ever have at most two military units in it
• no more than 5 military units may occupy any tile