Thoughts on Piety

joncnunn

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The piety start is perhaps disliked almost as much as the Honor start.
While I find it's normally not as good as other options, it's not quite as bad as that.
But it's still highly situational. (By contrast, Tradition is always great)

Here are the two primary cases I see Piety being decent:
1. Playing Poland seeking Science victory, (who has several policies to burn following completing whichever their first tree is before they open Rationalism. In addition I am going to assume that the advanced option to save policies is off so they can't just store the points and en block complete Rationalism the turn they enter the Rean. era)

In this case, I see a pantheon in which Poland could max out their UA by taking advantage of the Piety - Tradition combo in a manner that boosts science.

Goddess of Festivals (say with 4+ local wine).
First tech to research Pottery
Build a scout, next a Monument, start a worker (or something else) while waiting for Piety opener. Move Shrine to top of the queue interrupting whatever you were building for four turns.
Next social policy should be the one doubling Shrine faith; followed by the one decreasing costs of religious buildings.
When you found your religion, choose Monasteries. When you have enough faith for the reduced price Monastery pick it now in the capital.
If you get at risk of spawning your second natural prophet before completing Piety tree I'd also use it to buy a Monastery in your second city.

Reformation: Pick Jesuit Priests which allows faith buying of Universities / etc.
Second follower: If you think you can finish a full set of Monasteries & Pagodas before reaching education, I'd pick Pagoda; otherwise I'd pick the one giving 2 happiness from the standard temple.

Following completion of this tree, Tradition: Legalism (getting Amphitheaters), Monarchy (solving the happiness issues), and finish the tree (getting free Aqueducts and solving the growth issues)

After finishing all religious buildings, use that massive faith to faith buy those science buildings much faster than you could build them by hand.

Note that the above would also work with Incense, but I find Wine starts to be better than Incense.
A scaled down version could also work with Silver / Gold with Religious Idols could also work (replacing monasteries with something else) but won't be as good due to not having as much faith per turn.

The other case is Byzantine seeking Cultural victory. Say with a starting terriagn in which a normal civ would be torn between picking Earth Mother (for all the Salt resources) and Sun God (for all the Wheat resources).

Here as Byzantine you can select the faith pantheon first and then when you found a religion select Sun God as your bonus belief. Then since you are going Cultural and so will want more slots for artists, pick Cathedrals if still available [otherwise Pagodas] .
Again, after you have the reduced religious price, faith buy in your capital and should you become at risk at spawning a second GP before you finish Piety then buy one in your second city as well.

Upon reforming your religion, pick the Reformation belief that will give you +2 tourism from all religious buildings.

Upon enhancing your religion, pick the most useful religious building left.

You will now get +4 tourism per city in your empire.

Upon finishing the tree, the next tree to go into to secure the Cultural victory is Aesthetics. (Note that going back to Tradition for free aqueducts doesn't work in this case due to how long it takes)

Variations of this can also be used. Like if there wasn't a second pantheon appealing to you, then you could choose religious buildings and a bonus, follower, and second following for +6 tourism per city (if you can build them all and prevent your empire from being converted)
 
I like this strategy idea. I've never been able to use Piety successfully, but I believe this could really work quite well.

Would a culture victory strategy go along best with this?

I've seen others make comments as well about delaying the second prophet that would otherwise be born. Isn't he normally for enhancing religion? What is the strategy behind delaying his arrival? If you enhance earlier, don't you usually have more options?

Thanks for your input and great idea.
 
I like this strategy idea. I've never been able to use Piety successfully, but I believe this could really work quite well.

Would a culture victory strategy go along best with this?

I've seen others make comments as well about delaying the second prophet that would otherwise be born. Isn't he normally for enhancing religion? What is the strategy behind delaying his arrival? If you enhance earlier, don't you usually have more options?

Thanks for your input and great idea.


You will get a free Great Prophet when you complete Piety (which is actually free in that it doesn't increase the cost for the next Prophet). Doing this will allow you to enhance your religion with the Piety Prophet and then easily get another one.
 
Since you chose the sacred site reformation belief instead of to the glory of god, which allows you to purchase great peoples of all kinds, you can also choose any other social policy that you may find useful depending on the great person that you would like. Piety can spoil you with so much faith sometimes.
 
every successful piety game I've had has been a mixed piety/tradition start, and the early game has been piety-using-tradition-as-a-crutch. With 4 (technically 5) victory conditions, you'd think that each of the opening SP trees would be a little more advantageous towards one of the conditions, but tradition is hands-down the most useful towards ALL of them, maybe with the exception of liberty going for dom, but that's a tough argument.

Aside from Theodora getting 6 tourism per city provided you can snag 3 follower buildings, it can't compete strategically.

Don't get me wrong, it can be very very FUN!! My favorite aspect is the super tiles from holy sites, creating a strong economy, keeping borders pop-poppin', generating gobs of faith for more holy sites (more faith yielding yet more faith) helping to rake in more SP's, and later providing 1.5 tourism per holy site with hotels and then 3 tourism with hotels/airports. Furthermore, a temple in every city means a global 10% increase in gold, potentially making piety as good as commerce in gold production.

The Achilles' heel of piety is that there's no happiness there. Yes, we've already had the circular argument that faster religious buildings means getting their happiness earlier, but there's no additional happiness.

Could be fixed so easily too. Either:
A.) remove the two follower belief choices about shrine+3 followers = 1 happiness, and temple+5follwers= 2happiness, and make one of the SPs become shrine adds 1 happiness and temple adds 2 happiness (replacing either the opener of religious tolerance) or
B.) since the piety tree already suggests that you have religious buildings as your follower belief(s) (one SP reduces the cost and is a wasted policy if you don't pick religious building(s)), have a policy increase the happiness output of these buildings by 1, again replacing either the opener or religious tolerance.
 
The other thing you can do if you go Piety and Cultural Victory is go for Holy Site spam. Holy Sites give 3 culture which will be converted into tourism via Hotels and Airports, and can get another 2 culture by the appropriate World Congress resolution. Holy Sites also help you generate a lot of Faith post-Industrial to spend on GWAMs, specially if you go Freedom and pick the tenet that doubles Great Person improvement yields (which will double the Faith but not the Culture or Gold from Holy Sites).
 
I was going to second the Byzants. They get a bonus religious tenet, but no bonus to get religion in the first place.
 
I like this strategy idea. I've never been able to use Piety successfully, but I believe this could really work quite well.

Would a culture victory strategy go along best with this?

I've seen others make comments as well about delaying the second prophet that would otherwise be born. Isn't he normally for enhancing religion? What is the strategy behind delaying his arrival? If you enhance earlier, don't you usually have more options?

Thanks for your input and great idea.

My #2 (Byzantine) was specifically for Cultural victory, yes. That tourism bonus is so good in combo with two + sets of religious buildings for cultural victory that it could cause an accidental cultural victory even when not seeking one.

The thing about completing the Piety tree is that it grants a Great Prophet for free to use to enhance your religion. So in the case of about to get a second one naturally reducing faith on hand in exchange for increasing fpt is better; even with planning on having surplus great prophets plant Holy Shrines you'll want to fill all religious building slots first.
 
The Achilles' heel of piety is that there's no happiness there. Yes, we've already had the circular argument that faster religious buildings means getting their happiness earlier, but there's no additional happiness.

Yes, happiness is a challenge; the extra happiness sources for double dipping into happiness sources from religion when going Piety is less than what you'd get from Monarchy but having skipped religious happiness sources entirely.

The main thing I can think of here is that following Education your next beeline needs to be Printing Press to start building / buying the Zoos that you would be able to ignore if playing Tradition.

This also changes relative value of two of the sub policies within Aesthetics:

When going Piety, the sub policy granting culture from excess happiness is minimal; you won't have much at all compared to Tradition.
However, the sub policy granting a free GA will be more valuable as it's a lot more difficult to attain a natural one at that time of the game without Tradition.

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Edit: Cain mentioned the Byzantines; yes, the bonus belief is when they found and not for being first; but it's more valuable the earlier you can get it and if you want to double or triple dip into religious buildings, you may need to be first to found to ensure you can take them given how popular they are with the AI.
 
If you have a strong faith pantheon such as four wines and went with piety and tradition I'd rather go for glory of god - the one that lets you buy any great person rather than the faith buy science buildings. Also the AI loves the tourism from faith buildings and the science building reformation beliefs, they always take them first.

Being able to faith buy anyone frees you up from having to finish a social policy tree other than piety. You can cherry pick from all of them. I only took monarchy and the wonder building from tradition and saved two policies. You can get happiness and more production from the first two in exploration.

If you are going to finish piety then your faith purchase are reduced by 20% which promotes building faith buildings and missionaries. If you can get pilgrimage you can spam out cheap missionaries that get you more faith to get more missionaries. Converting one heathen AI can get you a friend forever as well as converting every citystate for reduced influence decay. To maximize this you'd want to stay in medieval for as long as you can since renaissance increases faith purchases by 50%.

My last game was a desert faith Egypt where I was up to 100 faith per turn in medieval. I was buying a mosque or a missionary every two and a half turns to keep from getting a prophet. By industrial it was 230 faith per turn. Ended up winning with autocracy culture before I built labs. The extreme faith generation with the buy any great person was great. If 4 citystates wanted a great merchant just pop one out as it only took five turns to generate the faith. The same with engineers and scientists, just popped them when desired as the first few are cheap. Only had to buy lots of great musicians and stopped after the 6000 faith one.
 
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