• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

Thoughts on the state of the game since New Frontier Pass

In Civ versions where the source code for the dll was released did mods work for all platforms or just windows?

The DynamicModifers table seems like an attempt to remove this limitation and was partially successful. Hopefully they can go from partially to completely in 7.
There are some limitations in the actual GameEffects, rather than DynamicModifiers.

You gotta also understand "how" and to "what" the modifiers actually attach.

For example, Religion is an object of itself that you can attach things do but no modifiers have any effect

When doing my Governor Overhaul, I discovered that "Buy Districts with X" is only available to cities WITH an established Governor, which was a surprising hard-coded limitation.

The simpler the modifier, the more flexible it is.

Take the new Leader Pass. Julius gets a GRANT_YIELD modifier on Captured Cities that runs once, which is how they designed his ability.
 
How does Civ 6's modability compare to it's peers from say Paradox/Amplitude/Mohawk?
I haven't modded any Games from those Studios yet, but from what I've observed:
- Paradox: has normally pretty moddable Games, and offers scripting most Mechanics in the Game, as well as AI. And there are a lot of big Overhaul Mods that change the Game to something completely different. And for Victoria 3 and CK3 at least, the Devs seem to really care about modding, and want to make the Game as moddable as possible.

- Mohawk: Old World has released the DLL source code very early on, but let's not forget that OW is made with Unity, which on its own offers many Tools that can Patch Games without necessarilly needing the DLL. Dale and Solver are also very helpful when it comes to modding, they even answer modding questions here on CFC and also offer Guides/Templates. And Deliverator has also made some Progress with Graphics modding. But OW has received very few Mods compared to these other Games, so it seems most People aren't very interested in modding that Game.

- Amplitude: I don't know about the other Amplitude Games, but Humankind is a bit similar to OW (both made with Unity). From what've observed, the Game is very moddable, but there are still some limitations, like UI modding isn't as accessible/easy as in Civ6, and 3D Graphics and AI Modding isn't supported yet. In terms of ease of use, many People seem to find simple modification of the database (works a bit differently in HK IIRC) quite easy, but other stuff that require scripting, not so much. But the Game is still in its early stages when it comes to modding, and the Devs may offer even more Modding Tools/Assets with Time (Civ6 didn't offer the SDK Assets until very later).

If I would compare one of those Games with Civ6, I would only do that with Humankind, bc it's the one I know the most about, even if little, and just from observation rather than experience, so take this with a grain of Salt:
Both Games have Pros and Cons when it comes to Modding. Civ6 is (currently) far supperior in terms of Graphics modding, but Humankind may offer a better Framework in the long run for scripting Total Conversion mods. Civ6 also has the Advantage of offering Mods on the Steam Workshop, which is more eccessible and easier to use for Players, where Humankind (and OldWorld) does that on old.mod.io. Humankind has received Hundreds of Mods by now, but most of them are just Map Mods, where Civ6 after +1 Year of its release has received many great Mods (if you go back to the Workshop, you will find plenty of really good Mods, that after some time before/after RnF got abandoned. Maybe bc the Authors were disappointed by the 1st Expansion so they left the Game, and tbh I don't blame them for that, RnF is a big disappointment for me too). Not very different from that, another interesting thing about Humankind Modders (mainly talking about Modders who change Gameplay Mechanics here), is that most People that I saw last Year being very inthusiastic about modding the Game, aren't interested in the Game anymore, and some very good Modders have even dropped the Game completely.

Conclusion:
Modding Friendliness doesn't necessarilly mean that a Game will have a long Lifespan. OW and Humankind offer great moddability, but I doubt that they'll have a greater Longevity than Civ6 (a much older Game - In fact, I believe that Civ6 will age much better than any previous Civ Titles if Firaxis fixes the more glaring Bugs, and Graphics also play a big Role here, bc Civ VI's Graphics are very appealing and have the chance to stand the Test of Time). They are very different Games, and great Games on their own, but, for me personally at least, they don't offer the Fun and the "Just One More Turn" Fealing that Civ6 offers. Which is IMO a very important Factor when it comes to modding, bc why would someone want to mod a Game that they don't really enjoy just because its moddable? The only Reason I'm modding Civ6 myself, is because I enjoy it, even without Mods. I have considered modding Humankind some Time ago, but I dislike a lot of the main Mechanics in that Game, and it also doesn't offer as much fun as Civ6 for me, which I realized to be the Ideal (current) Game for me to play and mod. If I'm modding a Game, then it's not because I dislike its Mechanics so I want to rework the Game completely, but to add to its Mechanics, improve them, and only rework Things that I think are just disrupting the Fun and Appeal of the Game.
 
Last edited:
I haven't modded any Games from those Studios yet, but from what I've observed:
- Paradox: has normally pretty moddable Games, and offers scripting most Mechanics in the Game, as well as AI. And there are a lot of big Overhaul Mods that change the Game to something completely different. And for Victoria 3 and CK3 at least, the Devs seem to really care about modding, and want to make the Game as moddable as possible.

- Amplitude: I don't know about the other Amplitude Games, but Humankind is a bit similar to OW (both made with Unity). From what've observed, the Game is very moddable, but there are still some limitations, like UI modding isn't as accessible/easy as in Civ6, and 3D Graphics and AI Modding isn't supported yet. In terms of ease of use, many People seem to find simple modification of the database (works a bit differently in HK IIRC) quite easy, but other stuff that require scripting, not so much. But the Game is still in its early stages when it comes to modding, and the Devs may offer even more Modding Tools/Assets with Time (Civ6 didn't offer the SDK Assets until very later).
Just wanted to piggy-back off this as someone with experience modding these games:

Paradox is (IMO) extremely good at promoting moddability - they've responded in the past to requests from the community to opening up/unhardcoding parts of the game. One example that comes to mind is when they worked to smooth out issues with gay marriage mods for CK3. Coding-wise, they use a proprietary language, so there's some learning curve there, but it's pretty straightforward once you learn the idiosyncrasies. It's been a while since I modded for a Paradox game, but from what I hear a lot of the modding limitations seem to be restrictions from the codebase itself, particularly for older games like EU4 - although there have been gripes about the lack of modding access for some variables in Victoria 3, I assume those will be improved/made more accessible over time. One downside is that they have (more) frequent updates, which means (like in NFP days) there's the potential a modder might have to go back and update/patch their mod every few months.

Regarding Amplitude, I made one (1) mod for it and - at least for me - it had a steep learning curve. You had to install Visual Studio (iirc?) and the system was pretty opaque in telling you what you could/couldn't edit - and my mod was just adding new Independent peoples. That being said, it seemed like it was perhaps the closest in places to having a GUI modding interface in that (and my memory is a bit fuzzy here, so - grain of salt) I recall it having drop-downs with potential effects. It also had the equivalent of DLL access as well, which required pushing a modification to the game itself, so not super accessible, but you were able to change a lot of the game as Gedemon's work showed (probably the closest comparison would be Rhye's and Fall for Civ 4). Additionally, I'm not sure if it's been resolved since, but I recall there were issues of saved games breaking if you didn't enable the mods in the exact same order or something like that, so again the accessibility/ease of using mods was less there. All in all, I'd say there was some promise, but overall a mixed bag that didn't seem like something I wanted to invest more time into learning/developing.

Unrelatedly, my two cents re: the perennial DLL debate. I think the arguments of it being only really accessible to a choice few and also having great potential both hold merit. I think only a handful (maybe half a handful) of current modders are probably in a position to make use of it. On the other hand, I'd wager a great number of modders (myself included) were not in a position to make immediate use of SQL/lua at the game's release either, granted the jump to DLL is most assuredly a more difficult one. However, I think the potential for DLL mods (operating under the assumption that only one can be active at any time) lies in a hypothetical 'unofficial patch' or community edit that could potentially fix lingering issues, open up hardcoded elements, or expose new variables/effects for other modders to use.
 
Regarding Amplitude, I made one (1) mod for it and - at least for me - it had a steep learning curve. You had to install Visual Studio (iirc?)...

Yes, there is a steep learning curve for Unity.
(It's not VS FYI).

But it is a GUI modding tool. You don't access or edit the files in a text editor like for Civ VI.

Let's be honest, there are so many XML mistakes in Civ VI, that with so much of the game mod-able in this manner I much prefer Amplitude's more modern and far less error prone approach.
My first mod for HUMANKIND took me all of 30 mins!

I'm not sorry for Firaxis (after that humiliating Leader Pass launch fiasco) because like Amplitude they too have evolved.
Marvel's Midnight Suns is out in a few days and I'm really happy for them cos it looks like a future.
(If as a studio they had to rely principally on Civ I would feel extremely sorry for Firaxis).

Co-Lead of Beyond Earth Will Miller is a programmer/developer on MMS (which I saw on one of their promotional YouTubes).
Perhaps they will bring something back with them to the Civ franchise for whatever they put out next!

RN Civ VI has turned into a game of infinite exploits.

Utterly shambolic. 😆
 
Yes, there is a steep learning curve for Unity.
(It's not VS FYI).

But it is a GUI modding tool. You don't access or edit the files in a text editor like for Civ VI.

Let's be honest, there are so many XML mistakes in Civ VI, that with so much of the game mod-able in this manner I much prefer Amplitude's more modern and far less error prone approach.
My first mod for HUMANKIND took me all of 30 mins!

I'm not sorry for Firaxis (after that humiliating Leader Pass launch fiasco) because like Amplitude they too have evolved.
Marvel's Midnight Suns is out in a few days and I'm really happy for them cos it looks like a future.
(If as a studio they had to rely principally on Civ I would feel extremely sorry for Firaxis).

Co-Lead of Beyond Earth Will Miller is a programmer/developer on MMS (which I saw on one of their promotional YouTubes).
Perhaps they will bring something back with them to the Civ franchise for whatever they put out next!

RN Civ VI has turned into a game of infinite exploits.

Utterly shambolic. 😆
It is something to consider that people don't really think about.

Civ 6 is over 6 years old or so, and came out during a time of a certain shift in how games were developed.

Games are now slowly moving away from dedicated engines, and moving ton Unreal or Unity because they are much more accessible and flexible without the worry of having to develop around the limitations of the team's programmers and engine concepts. Not to mention that the DLCs have also evolved, where it's now much more accepted to release smaller DLCs but more frequently, and I think a lot of games I feel like that came out around this period kinda either adapted quickly or were left behind.
 
Games are now slowly moving away from dedicated engines, and moving ton Unreal or Unity because they are much more accessible and flexible without the worry of having to develop around the limitations of the team's programmers and engine concepts. Not to mention that the DLCs have also evolved, where it's now much more accepted to release smaller DLCs but more frequently, and I think a lot of games I feel like that came out around this period kinda either adapted quickly or were left behind.

A number of the current Firaxis job postings specify Unreal Engine experience.
 
Unrelatedly, my two cents re: the perennial DLL debate. I think the arguments of it being only really accessible to a choice few and also having great potential both hold merit. I think only a handful (maybe half a handful) of current modders are probably in a position to make use of it. On the other hand, I'd wager a great number of modders (myself included) were not in a position to make immediate use of SQL/lua at the game's release either, granted the jump to DLL is most assuredly a more difficult one. However, I think the potential for DLL mods (operating under the assumption that only one can be active at any time) lies in a hypothetical 'unofficial patch' or community edit that could potentially fix lingering issues, open up hardcoded elements, or expose new variables/effects for other modders to use.
One thing I'd like to add in the whole DLL debate:

Yes it's true, only a very few active modders would have the skill to make direct use of it. But in case of Civ5, there were people like whoward69 (I think the name was) who made a valiant effort to take a lot of different things out of the DLL and make mods that made it possible for noob modders (like myself) to make simple XML mods changing things that could not have been changed without someone else having access to the DLL.

Are we guaranteed the same would happen for Civ6? Not at all. But still, there's no arguing that DLL access offers potential that is just not there without DLL access. Whether or not that potential would be realized is impossible to say, but it's frustrating not to have the chance for it to happen.
 
One thing I'd like to add in the whole DLL debate:

Yes it's true, only a very few active modders would have the skill to make direct use of it. But in case of Civ5, there were people like whoward69 (I think the name was) who made a valiant effort to take a lot of different things out of the DLL and make mods that made it possible for noob modders (like myself) to make simple XML mods changing things that could not have been changed without someone else having access to the DLL.

Are we guaranteed the same would happen for Civ6? Not at all. But still, there's no arguing that DLL access offers potential that is just not there without DLL access. Whether or not that potential would be realized is impossible to say, but it's frustrating not to have the chance for it to happen.
Absolutely, but I don't think anyone has said the DLL wouldn't be a useful tool. Of course it is.

This entire DLL debate resurfaced in this thread because of the statement "Civ 6 isn't modding-friendly because they never released the DLL."

I think that discounting everything Firaxis has done for the game's modding framework simply because one tool was not provided (nor was it ever promised) isn't fair, that's all.
 
Absolutely, but I don't think anyone has said the DLL wouldn't be a useful tool. Of course it is.

This entire DLL debate resurfaced in this thread because of the statement "Civ 6 isn't modding-friendly because they never released the DLL."

I think that discounting everything Firaxis has done for the game's modding framework simply because one tool was not provided (nor was it ever promised) isn't fair, that's all.
Fair point. When that's said, as a fairly noob modder who basically only dabbles in XML mods, I must say I found Civ6 a lot more cumbersome to mod than Civ5. In Civ5, I could easily add new buildings and techs, whereas in Civ6 I felt like even adjusting what seemed like some fairly small property often required me to update entries in as many as 5 or 6 different tables. For instance, if I wanted to modify improvements, often I would have to update both <Improvements>, <Improvement_YieldChanges>, <Improvement_BonusYieldChanges>, <Improvement_Adjacencies>, <Adjacency_YieldChanges>, <Modifiers>, <ModifierArguments> and <ImprovementModifiers> tables just to name some, and yet still there were some very basic things that is still not possible, such as forcing a district to be adjacent to city center.
 
Apart from omitting the existence of bugs, unfinished World Builder, smaller map sizes then previous iterations although many builds are happening on it, pathfinding with forced embarking/disembarking, board like units movement, small build queue though it being implemented at some point is somewhat an achievement, lack of ability to build queue prerequisites or repair those, alliances/friendships or traders being turn based not situational based, World Congress question marks or some voting (il)logic like banning a luxury some never heard of, scripted surprise wars and lack of formal wars, lack of automation in repairing improvements/building railroads, not being able to defend suzerain city states or lack of diplomatic options to stop anyone from attacking those or penalizing for conquering or destroying said city states, getting a praise from meeting AI's agenda and being hated by it at the same time, forced units teleportation after war ends, what did Firaxis ever done wrong with CIV VI?

If there is one thing I would done with a dll access is to add ability to build longer canals and bridges. Those features alone bring so much fun to gameplay.
 
Yes, there is a steep learning curve for Unity.
(It's not VS FYI).

But it is a GUI modding tool. You don't access or edit the files in a text editor like for Civ VI.

Let's be honest, there are so many XML mistakes in Civ VI, that with so much of the game mod-able in this manner I much prefer Amplitude's more modern and far less error prone approach.
My first mod for HUMANKIND took me all of 30 mins!

I'm not sorry for Firaxis (after that humiliating Leader Pass launch fiasco) because like Amplitude they too have evolved.
Marvel's Midnight Suns is out in a few days and I'm really happy for them cos it looks like a future.
(If as a studio they had to rely principally on Civ I would feel extremely sorry for Firaxis).

Co-Lead of Beyond Earth Will Miller is a programmer/developer on MMS (which I saw on one of their promotional YouTubes).
Perhaps they will bring something back with them to the Civ franchise for whatever they put out next!

RN Civ VI has turned into a game of infinite exploits.

Utterly shambolic. 😆

Fair point. When that's said, as a fairly noob modder who basically only dabbles in XML mods, I must say I found Civ6 a lot more cumbersome to mod than Civ5. In Civ5, I could easily add new buildings and techs, whereas in Civ6 I felt like even adjusting what seemed like some fairly small property often required me to update entries in as many as 5 or 6 different tables. For instance, if I wanted to modify improvements, often I would have to update both <Improvements>, <Improvement_YieldChanges>, <Improvement_BonusYieldChanges>, <Improvement_Adjacencies>, <Adjacency_YieldChanges>, <Modifiers>, <ModifierArguments> and <ImprovementModifiers> tables just to name some, and yet still there were some very basic things that is still not possible, such as forcing a district to be adjacent to city center.

So my initial impression is correct and Modbuddy is a glorified notepad

Is there a GUI tool that works for Civ6? Visual Studio perhaps?
 
So my initial impression is correct and Modbuddy is a glorified notepad
Is there a GUI tool that works for Civ6? Visual Studio perhaps?

ModBuddy is VisualStudio.

What Unity does is model the database/objects entirely in GUI:

It does take awhile to get used to but everything is "modelled" like this.
 
Last edited:
ModBuddy is VisualStudio.

What Unity does is model the database/objects entirely in GUI:

It does take awhile to get used to but everything is "modelled" like this.

The hell is Modbyddy not like this?

CivIII had a modding GUI for frack’s sake

It simplifies and automates things. Also I think you need it to "cook" art related stuff.

I kinda figured it was the Uploading tool. It’s pretty sad that other than that it’s more primitive that what I was using to write ASP stuff 24 years ago
 
Not to potentially further de-rail from the original topic, but - for what it's worth - ModBuddy does have GUI for some parts of it, mostly in the Asset Editor portion but also in the Mod Properties section that sets up how the mod's files are loaded/structured.

My assumption is that Civ doesn't have an overall GUI like HK for several reasons:
  • It doesn't rely on Unity. AFAIK, it's a proprietary engine that doesn't have the same built-in and accessible structure - so if they wanted to provide a GUI for modding they'd likely have to create one from scratch (moreso than they already have)
  • Building off of that, making a GUI is probably not worth it from a cost-benefit analysis. Time spent making a modding interface is time not spent on working on the game itself and its UI. One relevant question/thought here would be what sort of pipeline does Firaxis itself use to create/modify/update their game; documentation exists for Asset Editor (part of Modbuddy) so they may use something similar, but their process for non-Asset files may be very different and thus not transferable in the same way.
  • This is more of a comparison to Civ 3 than to HK, but Civ 6 is much more complex than 3 was. My recollection (grain of salt again) is that basically everything in a mod had to be compiled/built through the GUI in 3, and everything was basically included in it, but it was nigh impossible to do anything new/different or tweak things outside of the existing parameters. With Civ 6, a mod can include files in 3 different coding languages, be dependent on other mods or game modes to load different files, and import animated and voiced leaders.
I think this perhaps goes back to the earlier conversation about what does a game being "moddable" mean. Does it mean that it's easy to mod, or does it mean that much of it can be modded? A GUI (assuming it's well designed, and not predicated on other things that would steepen the learning curve, such as having to download/setup another tool) would potentially help in the first definition, but doesn't necessarily mesh well with the second one.

Relating to the thread's topic, I think one thing that is important to keep in mind is not just looking at Civ6 as it exists now but also its trajectory. By one definition of modding, it has gotten more moddable (more 'changeable') over time simply by virtue of Firaxis adding and exposing more variables - things like plotproperties and other methods of saving values have greatly expanded what's possible to do for modders who use lua, for example. But, by the other definition, I'd hazard it's gotten harder to mod in some respects; there are more variables to track, you may have to provide different versions for those with different DLC, and now the example mods in ModBuddy are out of date (the civ/leader one lacks jersey definitions, for example) in some cases. Rise and Fall hardcoded many of its new effects, but Gathering Storm and NFP were thankfully more flexible much of the time.

To p0k's point, experiences - or perceptions of experiences - are often defined greatly by how they end. NFP seemed like it was going to be that finale, and its perceived shortcomings understandably have left an impact on the entire product's image. Now that we're getting Civ 6 finale part 2 (electric boogaloo), the Leader Pass bears that same weight in holding up (or - depending on your point of view - repairing) perceptions of the game as a whole.
 
Last edited:
I haven't shared my Thoughts on this yet, because I wanted to clear my Mind from my Disappointment from last Week's release of the Leader Pass (more on that later) first, but I agree wholeheartedly with what P0kiehl said.

Just like most of People here, I had plenty of Joy playing Civilization VI. It's the most enjoyable Game I ever played, and the cheer amount of replayablity this Game offers is truly extensive. So I'm truly grateful for the Work Firaxis/the Devs have done with this Game, they made a great Job in making it enjoyable and fun to play for any kind of Player. Unfortunately, starting from the New Frontier Pass, the Game has received too many Bugs and Imbalances that it isn't as enjoyable as it was pre-NFP for me. Yes, the Game had many Issues and Bugs before that, but I could still enjoy it back then, and most Bugs were either Minor (as in compared to Bugs introduced during NFP) or just Exploits: easily ignorable.

Well, I have different Opinions about the current State of the Game, and I can only share them from 3 Points of View:
Spoiler My Opinion of the Game's State since NFP as a Civ6 Player :
There are many imbalances in the Game, but I consider them secondary behind Bugs and AI, mainly because they are nothing that Mods can't fix, but Bugs and AI not. So I'm not that bothered about them as much as others.

What really bothers me, and this is a hot take, is the fact that the majority of Players got a nice DLC Pass with plenty of Civs/Leaders, new Content and Game Modes, but I enjoy nothing of it. As some of you may have noticed, I'm not a huge fan of new Civs/Leaders, the Civs I care about and want to play as/against are already in the Game, and if I want a new Leader/Civ then the Workshop would already have what I want (The Only Civ from NFP I appreciate having is Vietnam). The other Content, like Districts, Natural and World Wonders and the Game Modes were very underwhelming for me. We could have had much more interesting and "realistic/historical" things than the ones we got. And even on their own, they have plenty of Issues. The Game didn't need those "Colorful, but Shallow" things, but some love to existing Mechanics that need some improvements, Fixes or rework in some cases, and also Fixes to the many, many annoying Bugs that are still in the Game since its release, like the Unit Pathfinding Issue, which alone speaks a lot about the Game's QA. No, what I got from NFP are Things that I don't enjoy, and Many Bugs and constant Game Crashes on top of that.

The biggest Bug pre-NFP was the Crashes that were caused when you played on some modded larger Maps. So, something annoying for many Players, but not something that was disrupting you from enjoying and playing the Game on its own. But NFP's Introduced Bugs can't be ignored, they don't just stop me from enjoying the Game, they're also Game breaking:
- Constant Crashes for no obvious reason (even without Mods), which never, or only in rare occasions happened pre NFP.
- Graphical Glitches that even if they don't affect Gameplay, they still are immersion breaking and disrupt the enjoyment from the Game's Visuals.
- Game getting trapped in an infinite loop when hitting next turn, which happens at least a couple of Times in a single Game.
- The Asset Limit Bug. There is no reason for this to be there, bc pre NFP you could enable all asset Mods in the Workshop and still play the Game just fine. For the Larger Maps Bug we have at least the Disasters and Climate Change Mechanics as possible causes for the Issue, but the Asset Limit Bug has no explanation for being there, bc none of the Game Modes were major enough to explain some core restrictions. And quite frankly, I despise NFP for this whole reason, bc it didn't even introduce any major Mechanics or reworked existing Ones that I could at least have as a consolidation, I could do without them (or NFP as a whole) if it means no Asset Limit Bug anymore. You can say that this is outside of the Game's Sphere and that it doesn't affect the Game on its own and that's all what matters, but I would disagree, bc A) although I like Vanilla Civ6, I'm only playing the Game because of Mods, and I don't want to invest in a Game that doesn't consider/support Mods, B) It might be the case that Civ6 may thrive without Mods, but only as long as it's supported by Firaxis. The Longevity of the Game after the end of its Dev cycle is mainly in the Hands of Modders/Mods, but if you put those kind of restrictions on Modders, then don't expect a great modding Scene, C) it might as well be the reason of all the random Crashes, even without any Mods.
- Game Mods Bugs should also be listed here, and not ignored bc they are optional (very weak excuse IMO). I have paid for them, so I want them to be playable, but AI not improving resources, the tremendous Monopoly Tourism Bonuses, AI suffering from Dramatic Ages, AI not using the Game Mods in an acceptable manner (I'm not expecting smart/effective usage)...etc. all of that prevents me from even playing with those Modes, how can I then give them a chance? I dislike most of the them, but I still want to give them a chance, but I know I will just exploit them, while AI either doesn't or suffer from them. So, what's the Point of them? I'm not the type of player who gets happy for getting a Win handed in the form of a silver platter of Icing/Toppings (that don't even taste good).
- Various other Bugs that you can find in plenty of Threads here on CFC in much more details.

Those are a lot of Bugs that aren't just annoying, but also prevent me from enjoying the Game, or more often than not, they even prevent me even from playing the Game. I honestly can't believe how unstable the Game has become since the introduction of NFP. And like P0kiehl pointed out, the Quality of the Game has also declined a lot since then. What once was a nearly complete and stable Game, is now a way-further-from-complete Game, that got/is getting some new "shiny" but hollow Features/Content with NFP/LP, instead of a Final Polish and Bug Fixing that could have left this Game in a state that would have helped a lot in its Longevity. It's really a shame that after the Devs poured so much work and heart into the Game, and made it the Game that we all love and enjoy, but now leave it in this only-half-enjoyable, incomplete and unstable state.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to talk down on the Devs, I'm really grateful for all the work they have done, and appreciate their Investments put in this Game. But truth be told, I disagree with a lot of their Decisions made, pre-NFP as well, but in NFP in particular. I'm also stunned that the main Designers were the Opinion that the Game was complete even before NFP, and more so now. The more I read and watch them talking about the Game, the more I have the Feeling that they don't pay Attention to details and the State of the Game as much as we do. Too bad. I get it, after spending several Years on a Game, there always comes the Point where you just want to finish it and head next to the next thing, to something completely new. But why NFP then? coud just have made a last Game Patch and then focused completely on Civ7, or Spin-Off. And also, wouldn't you also want to finish it in a good and stable state, after all the efforts put into it?

Yes, yes... 2K, Take2, Higher-Ups, limited Resources and all that, but Firaxis are still the ones who decide what to do with those Resources, at least the specific Design decisions to make for the Game. And I'm not happy with the Design decisions made since NFP. They didn't bring any Value to the Game for me, except annoying Bugs.


Spoiler My Opinion of the Game's State since NFP as a Modder :
I started modding the Game a few Months before NFP was announced, and the Modding state before NFP was really great. The Devs made a lot of stuff accessible, exposed a lot of lua Objects/Methods, released the SDK and Assets of the 2 Expansions...etc. They seemed to care a lot about modding. But that changed in NFP, bc most of the new Effects/Mechanics were hardcoded. Not completely unmoddable, but very restricting (like you can't make a new Secret Society that unlocks through X, but only through those 4 official hardcoded requirements). And we also still didn't get the rest of the Game Assets (from the smaller DLCs), or a proper lua API Documentation.

We always got new lua Objects/Methods when pre-NFP DLCs were released, mostly because of the Scenarios included, but I believe the Devs could have easily made those Scenarios hardcoded, but instead decided to use them to expose more lua Objects/Methods for Modders, and there were always a bunch of new stuff for Modders to find in the Scenarios, especially Black Death is a Treasure Chest for Modders. But the only Scenario introduced in NFP only exposed 1-2 new lua Objects/Methods and I don't see any major value in them myself tbh. Why do those Methods/Objects matter to me? bc as long as we dont get the DLL, lua is the only way to make any signifacnt changes to the Game, like Community BugFix Patches, rework/improvement of Mechanics, Total Overhauls...etc. So, they matter a lot.

All in all, NFP introduced quite a few of modding Possibilities, not as mach as previous DLCs have, but they are very useful still. But I'm really disappointed that they have hardcoded a lot of stuff in NFP that could have easily opened a lot of modding possiblities (like imagine if they exposed the variables for the Monopoly Tourism Bonus. I doubt that many PC users would disable M&C Mode right now). Whether the Devs didn't have the time for that and hadcoding stuff was faster to do or they simply didn't care, is up for debate, but it doesn't change the fact that NFP did more harm (considering all the Crashes and the Asset Limit Bug) than good for the Modding Scene. Which is very Disappointing, bc now I not only can't use my favorite Asset Mods together like I used to do before NFP, but I also had to scrap many of my Modding Ideas that involved new Assets.

And I'm also very disappointed in the Leader Pass in that, even though I don't care about the Leaders themselves, the new Gameplay Effects and Requirements they could have come with would have added some more modding possibilities. But that's not the case. Unfortunately.


Spoiler My Opinion of the Game's State since NFP as someone looking forward to Civ7 :
tbh, I don't. Not just because I'm still not done with Civ6 yet, and have plenty of cool Mods, that fix and improve many parts of it, in plan for it, but with all of this, I don't care about Civ7 anymore. The current state of Civ6 concerns me a lot about the future of Civ7 and how it will end up. If they keep with the Season Pass Formula, then Civ7 will with no doubt end up in a similar disjointed and unstable state as Civ6 is now in. The NFP Formula was financially very successful, and I expect that 2K/Take2 would want that to happen for Civ7 too. I really wish that that won't be the case and that I'm wrong about that, but I doubt it.

I don't want to invest in a Game that will end up in a similar state. Civ is a Game that you spend 100s and 1000s of Hours in, and still want to spend more. But if it means that after the dev cycle of the Game, I can't have more playtime without getting frustrated about some stupid Bugs and Modding Limitations, then the Game is a Failure and a total waste of Time for me, especially as a Modder. So, I'm not planning to get Civ7 at release or at any other Time, except at near the end of its cycle where I can judge whether I can live with its flaws or not, and where I would know its Modding State and Capabilities. I will perhaps watch some Reviews and follow the reveal Videos, and maybe even try the Game if a Friend has it, but only as a source of inspiration for my Civ6 Mod Project. But all I can say now for sure is that I really don't care about it, even if it introduced great new Mechanics and nice/beautiful Graphics (Humankind has both, but it's still not a great Game).

The only thing that would make me invest in Civ7 early on would be a BugFix Patch for Civ6 in the next few Months, but only if it also fixes the Asset Limit Bug and the Graphical Glitches (and also not break more stuff), the rest aren't as important to me as these 2. Other than that, I'll keep working on my Civ6 Mod Project, and I won't abandon it for a Civ7 that might turn out to be even more restrictive on Mods than Civ6. Although I'm not happy with Civ6's current state, it's still playable and I can still make it enjoyable if I use Mods. And for some reason that I can't explain, I have a strange feeling that either Humankind 2 will be announced in the Future and it will be a much better Game than the current Version, or another new 4X Historical Game will join this Genre and that may even rival Civ. At least, there is hope that there are going to be many Options for a 4X Historical Game, and that we're not bound to play and rely on Civ7. Although, If Humankind still keeps getting patches and reworks to its Mechanics, and end up in a good state, I might give it a chance.

My Final Note for this Section, is that whoever leads the Civ7 Design Team should have a plan for the Game and all its DLCs beforehand. Designing the base Game only, and leave the Conceptualization for future DLCs/Expansions has a too high chance to disrupt a compact and solid Base Game and leave in a state like Civ6 is in now: A strong base Game, that had great potential, but DLCs disassembling it to a Sandbox of unconnected Mechanics that the AI barely knows how to use. And everything covered up in some Glitter Modes.


Leader Pass:
I was expecting a BugFix Patch in Q4 2021, and now +1 Year later we still haven't seen any Patch, not even any announcement or validation from Firaxis that one is in the works. The Leader Pass is nice and all, but I couldn't care less about those Leaders. There is a Workshop full of Leaders if I wanted some variety in Leaders, and the Ones that should actually get those Leaders, bc they don't have access to the workshop, the Console Players, aren't even getting the Leader Pass. When they announced it 2 Weeks ago I was really excited and expecting a Game Patch to come alongside it, but the 1st DLC got released and no Patch at all. The fact that all the new Leaders, including the leaked ones, have Abilities that use existing Game Effects only further proves that there won't be a Game Patch, since the LP Devs haven't even bothered to make new Effects for the Leaders. That's deeply disappointing. If we really won't get a Final Patch at least at the end of the Leader Pass, that would really hurt my Civ Heart.

tl;dr: The current State of the Game really concerns me a lot, not just because I can't enjoy the Game as I used to, and mod it without major restrictions, but also because it is a sign that Civ7 will most likely suffer the same Fate: a Game left in an incomplete and unstable State, unnecessary (unfixed) Modding restrictions on top of the lack of the DLL (leaving not just the Game, but also the Modding scene in a bad state), and "Shiny and Fantastic" Game Content that should be anything, but in a Civ Game. I hope Firaxis releases a Final BugFix Patch for the Game that fixes all those glaring Issues, but I'm not much optimistic about that, given that they didn't even make a Patch for the Leader Pass. All in all, I just want and hope that Civ6 doesn't end up like how the Final Season of Game of Thrones left the whole Series with a very sour taste in the Mouth (tbh it seems like it). (And don't tell me that there is hope for Civ7, bc of House of the Dragons, we still don't know how that goes)
 
Last edited:
It is wrong to think of the "New Frontier Pass" as a "third game expansion after RF and GS". NFP says, "Oh, a new DLC series that adds many leaders and wonders. Buy it and get free official mods for secret societies, heroes, etc!" It should have been advertised as.

The various game modes added in NFP are buggy, unbalanced, and flawed with no AI available. However, if you think they are not full-fledged game expansions, but merely official mods, they are fine.

:sad: "The development of Civ6 is complete. However, it will take more time to launch Civ7. We need to add some new content to keep players coming back, but we don't have the budget to develop a new expansion. The new leadership DLC alone is not appealing. How on earth can we..."
:) "Let's put some experimental mods as "game modes" as a purchase bonus for the leaders DLC set."

Thus, the "New Frontier Pass" was born, an official mod with a lower budget and lower quality than the previous expansions.
 
It is wrong to think of the "New Frontier Pass" as a "third game expansion after RF and GS". NFP says, "Oh, a new DLC series that adds many leaders and wonders. Buy it and get free official mods for secret societies, heroes, etc!" It should have been advertised as.

The various game modes added in NFP are buggy, unbalanced, and flawed with no AI available. However, if you think they are not full-fledged game expansions, but merely official mods, they are fine.
I think I understand what you’re trying to say about expectations, but I just don’t feel that way. It’s irrelevant to me whether you consider NFP to be like an expansion or standalone DLC or something else. My point was that all of the content up to then, regardless of whether it was an expansion or not, was more polished and coherent.

Was it perfect? No. The game has always had a problem with some of the little things, like inconsistent language describing abilities, but it was never this messy feeling, and the increasing messiness of the game’s official content is simply disappointing to me whether you call it DLC, a mod, or a marshmallow.
 
Top Bottom