Thoughts on the state of the game since New Frontier Pass

I personally find Nzinga's ability cool, it is finally like a proper Tall civ. I hope some other tall playstyle leader will arrive too.

Julius Caesar's ability is straightforward yes, but it gives motivation to attack barb camps and cities in true Caesarian style, and the later ramped up bonus with Steel gives reason to start industrial era campaigns (reminds me of Italian empire).

I just feel that people who enjoy civ seem to be in minority in CivFanatics, people are more invested in finding faults or complaining how some design isn't as they intended.

Nowadays I find reddit Civ community to be more positive and people sharing fun they are having with the game.

(Remember how in the Technical support forum Carl asked to keep sending bug reports, that could signal there will be a patch in the future.)
 
I defend Firaxis a lot but if I was running a company and people kept complaining about these bugs, I think it would be a good idea to try to fix it, or at least acknowledge that these problems exist.
The reticence to ever address anything is frustrating. I know everyone always says that it's because of 2K maybe, or that they don't want to be misquoted or something, but today it feels downright anachronistic. I hope that whoever is in charge of policies like these will reconsider them. Level-setting our expectations with more communication is a great idea.

Think about how surreal it is that Civilization 6, a AAA title from one of the most popular franchises in all of gaming, went 1.5 years with a ton of serious bugs without anyone publicly stating anything.

I was fretting over the fact that the livestream and promotional material for Great Negotiators didn't mention bugfixes or anything. I guess "no answer" ended up being an answer though?
 
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I just feel that people who enjoy civ seem to be in minority in CivFanatics, people are more invested in finding faults or complaining how some design isn't as they intended.

Nowadays I find reddit Civ community to be more positive and people sharing fun they are having with the game.

(Remember how in the Technical support forum Carl asked to keep sending bug reports, that could signal there will be a patch in the future.)
I'm glad you're happy with the designs, but that doesn't mean others can't find fault with them.

I don't think it's fair to be so dismissive of valid criticism that is delivered fairly and politely. My post had no inflammatory language and no aggressive or dramatic tone. In fact, I often call out posters here who post personal attacks and unfounded mean jabs at the devs. But at the same time, fans needn't be restricted to never leveling fair criticism at the game.

If I didn't love the game (which I reiterated I did multiple times) as you do, why would I bother making this very thread? I want it to be better.

Side note: it's funny you mention what a supportive crowd Reddit is. I posted this there too, and someone just responded calling me "an ***hole." I find this forum much more civil, actually.
 
Nowadays I find reddit Civ community to be more positive and people sharing fun they are having with the game.
But the game is a bit broken. :( I haven't played Civ 6 in a few months, but for nearly a year before that I was playing hotseat multiplayer against myself because I couldn't deal with some of the bugs and having no AI was a way of circumventing that.
 
I'm glad you're happy with the designs, but that doesn't mean others can't find fault with them.

I don't think it's fair to be so dismissive of valid criticism that is delivered fairly and politely. My post had no inflammatory language and no aggressive or dramatic tone. In fact, I often call out posters here who post personal attacks and unfounded mean jabs at the devs. But at the same time, fans needn't be restricted to never leveling fair criticism at the game.

If I didn't love the game (which I reiterated I did multiple times) as you do, why would I bother making this very thread? I want it to be better.

Side note: it's funny you mention what a supportive crowd Reddit is. I posted this there too, and someone just responded calling me "an ***hole." I find this forum much more civil, actually.
Agreed. There needs to be a balance. Constructive criticism is always warranted because we all want the game better. If people didn't care, they wouldn't even bother. Personal attacks are wrong, though, as you have said.

Oh and yes, the mods here are great and Reddit is a cesspit.
 
Oh and yes, the mods here are great and Reddit is a cesspit.
Reddit isn't that bad (neither Civ's specifically) and the only negative comment on pokiehl's post is this dude:

1669157869551.png
 
Reddit isn't that bad (neither Civ's specifically) and the only negative comment on pokiehl's post is this dude:

View attachment 645770
Maybe not for Civ but in other areas it's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Perhaps Civ usually brings the best out of people. 🙃
 
Introduction
With the Great Negotiator DLC, I wanted to collect my thoughts on the state of the game and the future of the Leader Pass.

Civilization is far and away my favorite game series. It has brought me nearly endless enjoyment, and the games serve as anchor points to some of my most important memories in life. I lead with this to convey my enormous gratitude and respect to the developers. However, beginning with the New Frontier Pass and carrying through to the Leader Pass, there has been an increasing decline in quality.

Bugs and Stability
The New Frontier Pass introduced quite a few bugs, some of which are severe and game-breaking. By and large, these bugs have yet to be fixed or even acknowledged. The Great Negotiators DLC has also introducing bugs such as broken leader music during diplomatic interactions and an exploit for Abraham Lincoln to receive unlimited free units.

Throughout the promotion of the Grand Negotiators DLC, the developers did not mention a bugfixing patch, but after over a year and a half of silence, I was hoping that we’d get some resolution for these issues. However, there are no patch notes, and the game version number hasn’t even changed with the update. As best I can tell, the only fixes we’ve received since the April 2021 patch are that the Eureka text descriptions for Siege Tactics and Replaceable Parts have been updated.

Given that every entry in the New Frontier Pass DLC introduced bugs which remain, and that the Great Negotiator DLC has already brought bugs, I am concerned that every additional release will further break aspects of the game. For the next content from the Leader Pass, I hope the developers will be able to address some of the following:

  • The Culture Industry policy card bricking games
  • The AI overfocusing on Science and Campuses to the detriment of everything else due to a presumed typo
  • The broken modifier in the Letters of Marque policy card, which does not apply the Trade Route yield penalty
  • The Portugal Trade Route UI not showing the Faith bonus
  • General crashing, which increased in frequency throughout the NFP DLC
  • Other issues which have been reported on Civfanatics and submitted to 2K support
Attention to Detail
Details create the big picture, but lately, attention to detail has suffered. Many little things have been overlooked since the New Frontier Pass. For instance, some new civilizations did not get their city style graphics appropriately applied, there are missing icons in the Loyalty lens, and the music for Portugal plays on a different channel than other themes. Additionally, the way abilities are described has been increasingly inconsistent, with missing font icons, different ways of rephrasing similar bonuses, and obvious grammatical mistakes. Some of these have been addressed, thankfully; Kublai Khan is no longer being lauded for his “marshall” skill. Overall, though, these issues have become increasingly worse since the first DLC of the New Frontier Pass and the existing ones are largely unaddressed.

The quality of the art has also changed. There is a growing clash of artistic style that doesn’t blend well with existing content. Julius Caesar looks overly cartoonish in his proportions and outfit, and the texturing of Simon Bolivar stands out as noticeably different than texturing on other leaders, for instance. Environmental art has taken a hit as well. The texture of structures in the Mayan Observatory district clash wildly with the actal models of the Library, University, and Research Center—compare this to the excellent Malian Suguba or the Phoenician Cothon, which have wholly unique models for their district buildings. The Honey resource leaves more empty space on the tile than any other resource or tile feature, with only a couple hives ever generating.

It’s not just the game itself—promotional material feels less polished, too. The webpage for the Great Negotiator DLC launched with the screenshots contradicting the captions right below them, for instance. Most have been corrected, but even now the webpage calls Saladin’s ability “The Virtuous Military” but in actuality it is “The Viruous” in game and in the screenshot. This is to say nothing of the actual DLC launch, which has frankly been messy, confusing, and disappointing. I still don't have access to the new leaders.

Overall, everything has begun to feel less and less polished. You may not care about typos or syntax or an off-kilter model, but details matter. The little things sum up to the big thing, and when the little things are lacking, invariably this is reflected in the bigger picture. These oversights hurt immersion and make this AAA title feel much less “big budget.”

Civ and Leader Designs
With April 2021 rebalancing and the Great Negotiator DLC, the civ and leader designs have gradually felt less cohesive and elegant. While New Frontier Pass had some great gems, like Portugal’s whole design, the April 2021 patch saw certain Civs receive sledgehammer-sized buffs that result in over-the-top yields. With the Great Negotiator pack, abilities feel much more basic than previous DLC. Nzinga’s leader ability is “Maya, but continents.” Julius Caesar receives a flat Gold bonus for conquest or clearing Barbarian camps, but wouldn’t this bonus feel more dynamic if it gradually scaled with some factor, instead of being flat until Steel, then flat again?

Much of this is a matter of taste, but it would be great to see more out-of-the-box ideas that don’t echo existing design space.

Summary
Although I am truly grateful that this game is receiving additional content, the issues are accumulating to the point where I am beginning to wonder what Civilization 7 will be like. In the excitement of this new DLC, I hope Firaxis can potentially take a step back and address some of the above issues so that Civilization 6 can be retired with the same level of polish that we got in the base game through Gathering Storm.

Again, I am very thankful to the developers for their hard work on this game. I know making a game isn't easy, but they have said they care about fan feedback, and history has shown us they take it seriously, even if they aren't able to be as transparent as we may like.

Agreed more or less.

Firaxis seem like good guys. The Civ franchise is great and Civ VI is a fantastic game. But the game has got less “tight” since GS through NFP, and bugs and other frictions not being addressed is frustrating and makes the game unenjoyable a bit less enjoyable.

Firaxis aren’t continuing to develop Civ VI, and that’s the nub of the problem. Read Ed’s recent interview elsewhere on the forum - they’re happy to add some more leaders to expand the roster, but no new content or expansion. Firaxis consider the game done, either because it’s “complicated enough” as Ed says in the interview, or they don’t think there’s enough ROI continuing to develop Civ VI, or they have just moved onto other projects.

No ongoing development means no iteration, further vision or resources. And that means limited appetite or ability to address bugs and other frictions. In the circumstances, really, getting a free leader pass is a pretty good result. Anything beyond that seems unlikely, although maybe they’ll relent and we’ll get a big fix / balance pass (but like maybe not).

I thought Firaxis should have kept developing Civ VI when NFP came to and end and I still feel that way, even if I’m otherwise happy enough with the game. Equally, it was pretty clear when NFP ended that Firaxis were done with Civ VI (indeed this leader pack is a somewhat of a surprise) and still seems to be their view. I’m not sure they’re really “wrong” or “unreasonable” to not keep developing the game - I mean, they must know their business best, and they seem to generally try to do right by players - but yeah, the lack of further development and moving onto new projects is disappointing. Oh well.

I find this forum much more civil, actually.
I love the CivFanatics forum. One of the best most civil, erudite and informed places on the internet.

This place is a real credit to the posters and mods.

[edit: choice of words.]
 
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Maybe not for Civ but in other areas it's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Perhaps Civ usually brings the best out of people. 🙃
I'm mostly on Reddit for several coffee subs, and the people there are pretty cool. TBH 9/10 gaming communities, no matter where they are, are toxic. So many gamers really are the worst.

If I didn't love the game (which I reiterated I did multiple times) as you do, why would I bother making this very thread? I want it to be better.
This. There are people who just like to whine, but most of us who spend time criticizing something do so because we care about it.
 
Reddit is more positive than here, I will admit. However I think we all are so "negative" and "harsh" because we want this game to be good and we know it can be good. Reddit is a far more casual outlet of Civ VI, they are far more likely to gloss over the bugs and many faults of this game. That isn't a bad thing, and it does seem like they are having more fun there than over here, however I think it's all a matter of perspective and how we on CivFanatics view things vs. over there.

I have been critical, but I am only critical because I love this game and its concept. I have soaked 1000's of hours into this game because the developers have designed a game with strong mechanics that make it very fun to play. But it goes two ways, the amount of bugs and now poorly designed leaders is damaging the game and I have to be critical because I want this game to be the best it can be.
 
I'm mostly on Reddit for several coffee subs, and the people there are pretty cool. TBH 9/10 gaming communities, no matter where they are, are toxic. So many gamers really are the worst.


This. There are people who just like to whine, but most of us who spend time criticizing something do so because we care about it.
That's true, taking care helps lead to better understanding.
 
The game feels more unstable than ever, frequently freezing or failing to launch correctly

It almost feels like I'm playing a different game. So far with my Lincoln game, no issues like this at all. No crashes. Of course now that I said that...

I am running no mods at the moment. Mods do make my game a little more unstable. With the mods I was running before this I would get maybe 1 or 2 crashes a game. And I do hope to go back to mods for my next game. I really miss them. Especially easy trade deals mod. This is something that should be in the base game, but I feel like maybe they intended it to be this way to not make things too easy. But it really is about quality of life for me.
 
The parts I'm disappointed with are the last pass's modes. They don't work right. Which is a shame because they had some cool ideas.
I think it's important to remember that the game is a at least a few years past the EOL of the last several iterations of civ. 5 ended in a pretty unbalanced way IMO too (four city). It also could have used a "last patch" but we tend to wave that way. Nostalgia is a strong thing.

Civ 6 is WAY more busy, you can consider that good or bad but ofc there will be some unbalanced parts of that. Considering the scope of all of the things they were doing I think it turned out fine. People are bored with it after 6 years? I mean I'd hope so. Think of real life six years ago. Barack Obama was president. Nobody knew what a Covid virus was.
 
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5 ended in a pretty unbalanced way IMO too (four city). It also could have used a "last patch" but we tend to wave that way. Nostalgia is a strong thing.

Civ 6 is WAY more busy, you can consider that good or bad but ofc there will be some unbalanced parts of that. Considering the scope of all of the things they were doing I think it turned out fine. People are bored with it after 6 years? I mean I'd hope so. Think of real life six years ago. Barack Obama was president. Nobody knew what a Covid virus was.
You’re mention balance issues and then analogize the situation to Civ 5, but I didn’t really talk about balance or how fun or not fun I find the game.

I’m talking about a decline in quality. I’m not talking about getting bored with the game or thinking it needs another pass at making civs closer in strength. I’m saying there are gamebreaking bugs and that the quality of execution across the board has appeared to dropped with every new DLC after Gathering Storm.

Civ 5 still has bugs that never got fixed, sure. But it never felt like it was ripping at the seams.
 
You’re mention balance issues and then analogize the situation to Civ 5, but I didn’t really talk about balance or how fun or not fun I find the game.

I’m talking about a decline in quality. I’m not talking about getting bored with the game or thinking it needs another pass at making civs closer in strength. I’m saying there are gamebreaking bugs and that the quality of execution across the board has appeared to dropped with every new DLC after Gathering Storm.

Civ 5 still has bugs that never got fixed, sure. But it never felt like it was ripping at the seams.
I mean I generally agree with you. 6 was in a pretty good spot a few years ago, then they added some stuff but didn't really follow up. It extended the lifespan of the game but it was kinda halfhearted compared to the previous efforts. Would we have been better off without the "new" things? IDK. What if there was just nothing after the Rise and Fall? It did give me some more plays of exploring some stuff, flawed or not.

Just fix some of the things that could have been really good.
 
Thank you @pokiehl for this good read of well-structured and valid points to which I wholeheartedly (and heartbrokenly) agree.
I already found the lacking marketing efforts to be suspicious. And now we got new leaders of which already existed modded versions, which have way more interesting mechanics that actually fit the "Great Negotiator"-theme. I mean, Lincoln is just a shallow rip-off of Gedemo's Lincoln, for god's sake!
Just now I saw that there has already been launched a Modder's Pass that is intended to accompany the Leader's Pass by FXS. Well, in my case I guess it won't merely accompany but substitute this product that (at least in its first fragment) is not worthy to ranked besides the existing collection of civilziations / leaders.
The only thing, which is actually way, way better than it has been the case for the leader's of NFP is the loading-screen text. If I am not mistaken we may echo our thanks to @Andrew Johnson [FXS] for this one spark of joy that the 'Great Negotiators' had make me feel ...
 
So, is NFP worth buying then? I've been reluctant to buy it up to now, mainly due to what I've read on here about the game modes. But with the Leader Pass it seems now that I need to get NFP to get LP as well?
 
Lincoln is just a shallow rip-off of Gedemo's Lincoln, for god's sake!
Lol! I had to check this, and the Loyatly bit is basically copy & pasted. Only Gedemo's has other elements that make it more fun, such as the unique engineer.

Could you send a link to where you read about this Modder's Pass? Is it basically a rework of the uninspired abilities of the Leader Pass?

Edit: Found it.
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So, is NFP worth buying then? I've been reluctant to buy it up to now, mainly due to what I've read on here about the game modes. But with the Leader Pass it seems now that I need to get NFP to get LP as well?
There's barely any new content yet, so if you weren't interested in NFP, not much has changed.

If you do eventually decide to buy it, go straight for the Anthology on sale (assuming you're on steam). LP is already included there at no extra cost and the Anthology's price changes depending on what you already own.

(If you're on Epic, Anthology works differently).
 
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I must admit, I'm quite surprised they even released this pack. although at least it's free.

I would look at it this way:

The base game is like a cake. Rise and Fall, and Gathering Storm are like the icing on the cake. NFP and this pack are like the sprinkles on top of the icing.

Now more sprinkles are fine if the underlying cake is good. I certainly wouldn't say the underlying cake is terrible (I've played 670 hours vs 240 of Civ V) but it's a bit stale so adding more sprinkles is not going help at this stage. There are things i would like to see improved in the base game but I don't think they are ever going to happen so I would rather we get Civ VII
 
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