Time to critique the tech tree!

[Siptah]

I can't take a tech tree seriously that mixes technologies and science and both are researched by science... good thing they took they civics out, but I still miss another 'tech tree' and 'science tree' split. They could be interacting heavily though. Or is that what they tried with the eureka moments? It would make sense in that case to give a civ that has always be technological advanced but notoriously unscientific an eureka boost, just like they did with china.
Good thing is that they got rid of a lot of techs from civ 5 that had to be researched while being quite common in 4000 BC when you start (hunting for example).
I'm also very happy they removed the renaissance astronomy tech that never made any sense. Now we just have astrology, but it comes early enough to feel right.
Edit: Turns out Astronomy is still a 'tech' and it's still in Renaissance -.-
As for more techs/civics: please no. I don't want a new tech every 2 rounds.

 

[Brackenspore]

Whole tech tree sucks... hell, it is not even a tree! It has no leaves.

Like.

 

[Brackenspore]

Well you won't get that when half the ciV tech tree was moved into the civic tree.

Yes. But I need 50 more techs in Tec and Civic Trees.

 

[MistyRonin]

I'm also very happy they removed the renaissance astronomy tech that never made any sense. Now we just have astrology, but it comes early enough to feel right.
Edit: Turns out Astronomy is still a 'tech' and it's still in Renaissance -.-
As for more techs/civics: please no. I don't want a new tech every 2 rounds.

Well astronomy is what actually allowed oceanic sailing. First it was used by the Arabs to cross the desert and later European sailors on the ocean.

The astrolabe, the nocturnal and the sextant were a must (heck some ships still use them nowadays, I know at least a couple cases).

 

[Siptah]

Well astronomy is what actually allowed oceanic sailing. First it was used by the Arabs to cross the desert and later European sailors on the ocean.

The astrolabe, the nocturnal and the sextant were a must (heck some ships still use them nowadays, I know at least a couple cases).

But what would you call the Almagest if you count astronomy as renaissance science? Maths? And there are many other writings about astronomy from many cultures before renaissance that are not only astrology, the Almagest being just the most famous and with the most impact on history.

My complain is not about astronomy in general, but about astronomy coming so late (and after celestial navigation).

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

Don't have strong opinions on the tech tree but:


- Medieval era looks very short. I see that they want each era to only have two tiers (except for ancient era), but together with the inclusion of industrial, modern, atomic and information era the tech tree gets very focused on newer techs. Splitting the medieval era into two would have helped a lot. Right now, 50% of the tech tree only covers the last 300 years of history.

The reason why the tech tree is set up this way is because the majority of meaningful innovations occurred in the modern eras. Splitting up the Medieval era would mean adding techs of lesser importance. Over the 1000 year span of the Medieval era not much occurred technologically. Most of the important innovations were machinery. Basically the Machinery tech would be divided up into lesser techs. Warfare also didn't progress too much either until the Chinese discovered the magic dust called gunpowder. Dividing that era up wouldn't do much for gameplay. This is also why historians consider it one long era.

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

But what would you call the Almagest if you count astronomy as renaissance science? Maths? And there are many other writings about astronomy from many cultures before renaissance that are not only astrology, the Almagest being just the most famous and with the most impact on history.

My complain is not about astronomy in general, but about astronomy coming so late (and after celestial navigation).

A scientific approach to Astronomy first began in the Renaissance era. Prior to that astronomy was strictly observational. This is why Astronomy comes later. Celestial navigation doesn't require much mathematics. Polynesians are a prime example. This is what led to modern Astronomy.

 

[Siptah]

A scientific approach to Astronomy first began in the Renaissance era. Prior to that astronomy was strictly observational. This is why Astronomy comes later.

The classics on astronomy are really a pain to read, but you should try it if you are interested (there are modern version with graphics and formulas). It's actually the very beginning of science (along with geometry). Calculating the size of the moon and the sun for example is not purely observational.
But I guess it always depends how you see science. Most books you'll find about science history start with classical astronomy as first science though. (or at least all books I read about that topic)

 

[sonicboom12345]

Wow. This is the first I've seen it, and it looks... really bad. I don't even care about astrology and square rigging, but just the way it's laid out, the 1.5 era gaps, and how minuscule it is are not reassuring. I hope it works better in practice than it seems.

 

[Siptah]

Wow. This is the first I've seen it, and it looks... really bad. I don't even care about astrology and square rigging, but just the way it's laid out, the 1.5 era gaps, and how minuscule it is are not reassuring. I hope it works better in practice than it seems.

keep in mind nearly half of the 'techs' are not in that tree, but in the civics tree.
Besides that, it's two months old. You'll see a new tree tomorrow that is probably more fleshed out in the late game.

 

[Krajzen]

Over the 1000 year span of the Medieval era not much occurred technologically. Most of the important innovations were machinery.

I'm sorry but that's just nonsense. Not only Europe was not stagnating and greatly developing over the course of this period, but Chinese, Indian and Islamic science was flourishing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

During the medieval period, an enormous amount of progress happened, and frankly all three civilisations I just mentioned (as well as Christian Europe, but it had far later start regarding science) quickly became far more advanced in theoretical sciences than Rome (generally Roman civilisation was terribly poor in theoretical science output when compared to Greece, in this particular regard Romans are absurdly overrated).

Medievity being "dark ages" and all tech stuff happening after is an old and silly myth.

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

@Krajzen: let me be clear. I'm not talking about progress towards existing classical ideas like optics, astronomy, and mechanics. I completely agree with you. I'm looking at this from a tech tree perspective. The civilizations that you are speaking of made advances in the classical mechanics that were existing ideas. I'm speaking about new tech. New important medieval techs were the compass, gunpowder, machinery, banking, mathematics. If the medieval era were expanded in-game many classical concepts would have to be reduced to the ideas and innovations that they are made of instead of having the broad subjects that the game uses.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

There's a weird division between extremely specific techs, like "Square Rigging" and "Castles," and extremely vague techs like "Engineering" and "Mathematics."

I also don't think the division between the science and culture trees is clear at all. If things that have to do with social organization belong in the culture tree, what is "Apprenticeship" doing in the science tree? Why are "Military Tactics" and "Siege Tactics" on the science tree, but "Defensive Tactics," "Military Training," and "Rapid Deployment" on the Culture tree? That isn't consistent. Anything related to tactics needs to get moved over to the Culture tree. There are plenty more inventions that could be added to the Science tree to fill in the lost space. Mills, books, calculus, fertilizers, biology, and refrigeration, just off the top of my head.

I agree with people saying the tree looks like it will play too fast. One of my problems with Civ V was that you flew through each era too quickly on normal speed. But I guess we'll have to play this to find out.

 

[dunkleosteus]

And, in too many places, the progression of the Technologies makes little sense, either Historically or for Gameplay purposes. Right at the start, Mining Tech gives you access to 3 other technologies, while Animal Husbandry only 2, and one of those an Era away, Pottery access to 2 technologies in the same Era, but presumes that Pottery was a requirement for Writing. Say What?

The requirement for Writing is the Necessity to Keep Records. So, yes, having a bunch of pots full of Stuff requires record-keeping, but so does having a bunch of valuable animals and their products (horn, hide, leather, etc) to keep track of. Writing is one Technology (among many) that cries out to have more than one antecedent, and the ability to be reached via more than one route.

Actually, I think the reason writing came from Pottery in the Civilization games was as a reference to the Mesopotamian civilizations. They wrote Cuneiform by pressing cut reeds into soft clay and then by firing it, it became hard and resilient. A lot of what we know about the Ancient [Mesopotamian] world is from finding these clay tablets, notably in the Royal Library at Nineveh and reading what they wrote.

 

[criZp]

If they removed these massive era separators from the tree it would seem a lot less empty.

 

[Moriboe]

The emptiness seems pretty convenient for modding in more techs though.

 

[criZp]

The emptiness seems pretty convenient for modding in more techs though.

I guess you could always mod in some more emptiness if needed.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

The tree has that really ugly and potentially obscure crossover schematic for Apprenticeship and Stirrups into Banking and Gunpowder.

Crossovers are necessary or the central lane always becomes burdened with prerequisites, no path able to join top and bottom except for through it. But that ugly ugly wire, representing one tech's prerequisite going up and the other's going down. UGH.

 

[Manifold]

I am shocked by the techtree so far.

I put my concerns here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=14459569&postcount=33

so far printing is available without writing... Musketeers will be the standard melee unit in the industrial era...Jet Bomber are the new stealth bomber, yet the techtree seems to ends before 1989!...

 

[Metecury]

The lack of certain techs and units will surely be sorted out with the next major expansion. I think over all seing as we get most of the mechanics from civ V+DLC on top of new ones the current state of the tech tree is understandable for the base game.