Triremes, Galleys, and claiming territory

[GoUtes53]

Bout 3/4 of the way through my 1st full game of AND, and I have a couple of questions and an opinion. Before I do let me say that this is a brilliant undertaking by Afforess and is very well done, comparable in quality to the very elite of the Civ mod making world. You are to be congratulated on this mod, and my questions and opinions are by no means meant to belittle your great achievement in any way.

Does the AI have the ability to know how to claim territory, using land units AND ships? The reason I ask is in my game (and granted it is only one game) I have not yet seen one AI ship or land unit claim any land or sea square. If they do not have that ability it would seem to me the human has a huge advantage there. Made we wonder....

Why can Triremes, Galleys and Fluyts claim territory and Caravels cannot? Once navigation is discovered and Triremes can go out on the open ocean it kinda makes it a bit of a moot point to convert them to Caravels, does it not? Outside of the one extra move point and one extra strength point, but is that not offset by the Trireme's ability to claim territory? Which brings me to opinion #1......

I am not sure that Triremes and Galleys should be able to go out into ocean squares, ever. You can probably make a case for them doing so in a limited sense in history, but generally before large scale ocean exploring was undertaken larger and sturdier ships like caravels had to be built to withstand the rigors of oceanic travel.

Also, I don't think ships should have the ability to claim any territory at all. Historically claims made by nations just sailing to a landmass were not exactly common. As a general rule it took a landfall for a nation to be able to claim a land. At the very least ships shouldn't be able to claim ocean squares. No one has ever just claimed a spot of water in the middle of the Pacific as their own. Throughout history oceans have been considered fair game for all. Now the coastal squares that surround a landmass, that's a different thing altogether. Coastal squares should most definitely belong to the owning nation, as today's 7 mile limit attests. I think you should have to land a unit of some sort to be able to claim any landmass, not just surround it by claiming its coastal squares and let expansion take care of it for you. Which brings me to my final question....

Why are Explorers unable to claim territory? I would think it should be one of the defining traits of an explorer to be able to claim land for the motherland. It would make explorers much more valuable than ever, and keep a historical aspect in check (such as the Spanish Conquistadors, Columbus, et al). It would still take military units to hold on to the land you've claimed, but I can see no reason why Explorers shouldn't be able to claim land for the homeland. Which leads me to my final opinion....

I think Explorers should be able to claim territory, but not Scouts. It would not only make Explorers more valuable, it would make upgrading them from Scouts more valuable as well.


Again, this is just my $.02 worth, and my opinions on making what is already a great modpack even greater. Many, many thanks, Afforess, for all of your very hard work

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Does the AI have the ability to know how to claim territory, using land units AND ships? The reason I ask is in my game (and granted it is only one game) I have not yet seen one AI ship or land unit claim any land or sea square. If they do not have that ability it would seem to me the human has a huge advantage there. Made we wonder....

This is the biggie that makes me think the fixed boarders component is broken. I spread my territory along the coast enabling me to claim islands and peninsulars and resources. The AI never even bothers to claim resources just outside its territory!

 

[Santhman]

Does the AI have the ability to know how to claim territory, using land units AND ships?

I know that playing on Noble, my enemies have claimed my territory on land. And the AI did a good job of it too, they went for my one and only iron vein.

Also your ideas seem good, but I am unsure of how they would impact gameplay.

 

[Afforess]

Does the AI have the ability to know how to claim territory, using land units AND ships? The reason I ask is in my game (and granted it is only one game) I have not yet seen one AI ship or land unit claim any land or sea square. If they do not have that ability it would seem to me the human has a huge advantage there. Made we wonder....

Yes. Sea and Land units can claim territory. I have seen my resources captured during wars, even in the ocean.

Why can Triremes, Galleys and Fluyts claim territory and Caravels cannot? Once navigation is discovered and Triremes can go out on the open ocean it kinda makes it a bit of a moot point to convert them to Caravels, does it not? Outside of the one extra move point and one extra strength point, but is that not offset by the Trireme's ability to claim territory? Which brings me to opinion #1......

Caravels should be able to claim territory. Basically, any unit that can pillage, doesn't have a hidden nationality, or isn't always hostile can claim territory, except if the territory is inside the small 9 square city cross. The inside 9 square city cross is always protected.

I am not sure that Triremes and Galleys should be able to go out into ocean squares, ever. You can probably make a case for them doing so in a limited sense in history, but generally before large scale ocean exploring was undertaken larger and sturdier ships like caravels had to be built to withstand the rigors of oceanic travel.

In RoM, all ships can go into the ocean, even at the beginning of time. Most of them sink though. The Seafaring Modmod does exactly the opposite. It resets it so that no ships can enter the ocean until Astronomy.

As for the actual issue, whether the ships are sea-worthy, I suppose it is debatable.

Also, I don't think ships should have the ability to claim any territory at all. Historically claims made by nations just sailing to a landmass were not exactly common. As a general rule it took a landfall for a nation to be able to claim a land. At the very least ships shouldn't be able to claim ocean squares. No one has ever just claimed a spot of water in the middle of the Pacific as their own. Throughout history oceans have been considered fair game for all. Now the coastal squares that surround a landmass, that's a different thing altogether. Coastal squares should most definitely belong to the owning nation, as today's 7 mile limit attests. I think you should have to land a unit of some sort to be able to claim any landmass, not just surround it by claiming its coastal squares and let expansion take care of it for you. Which brings me to my final question....

Again, debatable. However, because I can see both sides of the issue, I'll comprise. I'll add a global define, called CANNOT_CLAIM_OCEAN. If it's turned on (set to 1), units will be unable to claim ocean territory. By default, it will be off. But you can turn it on for your games.

Why are Explorers unable to claim territory? I would think it should be one of the defining traits of an explorer to be able to claim land for the motherland. It would make explorers much more valuable than ever, and keep a historical aspect in check (such as the Spanish Conquistadors, Columbus, et al). It would still take military units to hold on to the land you've claimed, but I can see no reason why Explorers shouldn't be able to claim land for the homeland. Which leads me to my final opinion....

Because explorers are unable to pillage. Claiming Territory is actually just a hi-jacking of the pillaging mechanic as far as the AI are concerned, and so only units that can pillage can claim territory.

I think Explorers should be able to claim territory, but not Scouts. It would not only make Explorers more valuable, it would make upgrading them from Scouts more valuable as well.

I guess it's reasonable to assume that explorers should be able to pillage, so I'll turn that on. For your games, just editing the explorer XML and setting bPillage to true (1) should enable it.

 

[konradcabral]

I think that only land tiles should be claimed. In real world, ocean and coast areas are controlled by the controllers of the nearest lands. See, that's different of temporarily controlling, which in the game is already simulated by the blockade command. So, IMO, ocean and coast claiming should be disabled, maybe powering blockade a little.

About the AI: in my games they tend to claim random tiles totally surrounded by enemy tiles that don't bring any vantages to them. I haven't seen they claiming border-tiles gradually extending their territory, or focus resource tiles. Resuming: they aren't smart on fixing borders.

 

[Afforess]

I think that only land tiles should be claimed. In real world, ocean and coast areas are controlled by the controllers of the nearest lands. See, that's different of temporarily controlling, which in the game is already simulated by the blockade command. So, IMO, ocean and coast claiming should be disabled, maybe powering blockade a little.

I did compromise. I did add the Global Define for AND 1.60. So you can disable it.

About the AI: in my games they tend to claim random tiles totally surrounded by enemy tiles that don't bring any vantages to them. I haven't seen they claiming border-tiles gradually extending their territory, or focus resource tiles. Resuming: they aren't smart on fixing borders.

The AI logic for Fixed Borders is non-existent. The pillaging function was hijacked. So if the AI was considering pillaging, there is a chance it will claim the territory and a chance it will pillage.

I don't fully understand unit AI logic, as I become more familiar with it, I may write some dedicated logic for claiming borders.