I have seen people say that "The Great Library" isn't an important wonder, i feel this is not true, atleast not in harder difficulty games. In the last game I was playing i was last in tech race and all i went for was the great library, i then built it, and all of a sudden i'm at the head of the pack, without near the amount of money going to research! What are your thoughts
Truly overlooked wonder
- Thread starter Jamesmor
- Start date
JuicyCivNewbie
Greatest civ player ever!
Well, Great Library is pretty good, my second choice ancient great wonder (first is pyramids). I wouldn't rate it over FP (my first choice wonder). Thing is, using the strategy I use, you end up conquering a lot of AI territory early on. It's easy enough to get techs in exchange for peace, so basically the Great Library would probably total up to a few hundred gold saved and maybe a couple cities taken from the AI in peace negotiations (rather than the techs), ie a nice wonder to have, but not a must-have.
(i) GL obviously varies in utility based on number of civs.
(ii( If you're using a builder strategy, GL is unnecessary - it's cheaper and easier generally to trade for techs than to tie up a good city early on that could be building settlers, workers, and improvements. I almost never build GL (monarch/emporer, standard map, 5-8 civs).
(iii) On MP, particularly with few ai civs, GL will be much more important - I'd wager that human civs will not be nearly as willing to trade techs, particularly with neighbors.
(ii( If you're using a builder strategy, GL is unnecessary - it's cheaper and easier generally to trade for techs than to tie up a good city early on that could be building settlers, workers, and improvements. I almost never build GL (monarch/emporer, standard map, 5-8 civs).
(iii) On MP, particularly with few ai civs, GL will be much more important - I'd wager that human civs will not be nearly as willing to trade techs, particularly with neighbors.
JuicyCivNewbie
Greatest civ player ever!
Hehe, I wouldn't trade techs with anyone but 'allies'.
Actually though, this raises a good point. GL will be a VERY powerful wonder in 3 or more player MP games. Wonder if we'll see 'no Great Library' rules springing up, rather like the 'no Great Wall' rules played in many civ2 no bribe games. See, Great Library would be one of the best military wonders in the game. Build tons of chariots, and unlike the other humans you can afford to set taxes to 100%. Save up cash, and upgrade tons of them to horsemen or even knights. Super powerful, could be unbalancing.
Actually though, this raises a good point. GL will be a VERY powerful wonder in 3 or more player MP games. Wonder if we'll see 'no Great Library' rules springing up, rather like the 'no Great Wall' rules played in many civ2 no bribe games. See, Great Library would be one of the best military wonders in the game. Build tons of chariots, and unlike the other humans you can afford to set taxes to 100%. Save up cash, and upgrade tons of them to horsemen or even knights. Super powerful, could be unbalancing.
Lawrence
Warlord
The great library is only good for 'prebuilding' if there are more than 6 civs.
Ancient techs come with a low price. For example, you can buy Map Making with about 60 gold if everyone else have discovered it. Currency will take you about 150 to 200 gold. Accumulating all of those techs you can get in this way( without mentioning you can actually buy tech from one and trade it to another for other juicy techs ), it would be approximately 2500-3000 gold. Great Library takes some hundred shields to build. As anyone knows, shields are a lot harder to get than golds in Ancient Ages, that's why people shun the Great Library in higher difficulty levels.
Ancient techs come with a low price. For example, you can buy Map Making with about 60 gold if everyone else have discovered it. Currency will take you about 150 to 200 gold. Accumulating all of those techs you can get in this way( without mentioning you can actually buy tech from one and trade it to another for other juicy techs ), it would be approximately 2500-3000 gold. Great Library takes some hundred shields to build. As anyone knows, shields are a lot harder to get than golds in Ancient Ages, that's why people shun the Great Library in higher difficulty levels.
JuicyCivNewbie
Greatest civ player ever!
Thing is, it could end up saving you shields in MP. All those turns on 100% tax will see you being able to produce enough money to upgrade a lot of units, whereas everyone else will have to build then units at a slower rate.
philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
I always are in a tech lead even in regent because the expansionist treat.i had about 12 techs from goody huts.
expansionist +scientific=tech lead.
expansionist +scientific=tech lead.
bobgote
Trousers
Great Library can be very handy. It's difficult to keep up in Monarch and higher. If nothing else, the culture is worth it. And remember, you having the wonder deprives some other civ of getting it's benefits. It's useful if you are isolated on an island with no hope of tech trading.
Expansionist/Scientific is russians? Not everyone wants to base their entire civ3 experience on the one civ.
Expansionist/Scientific is russians? Not everyone wants to base their entire civ3 experience on the one civ.
JuicyCivNewbie
Greatest civ player ever!
Besides, Cossacks suck 
It's actually pretty easy to keep up with the AI on monarch or emperor, at least if you ICS as I do. Deity it's difficult, even if you are expansionist on a huge map (you will get lots of techs from huts, but I haven't ever so far gotten every ancient tech as some have, I often trade for many techs). Deity is the level where GL really can be handy, any other level it's just a nice bonus (it will earn you hundreds of gold).
It's actually pretty easy to keep up with the AI on monarch or emperor, at least if you ICS as I do. Deity it's difficult, even if you are expansionist on a huge map (you will get lots of techs from huts, but I haven't ever so far gotten every ancient tech as some have, I often trade for many techs). Deity is the level where GL really can be handy, any other level it's just a nice bonus (it will earn you hundreds of gold).
Lawrence
Warlord
On deity you can build it?
You must be a much better player as I am. In my only Deity game(GOTM 7) the AI built it around 700 BC.
Besides, as you say, on Monarch it is only a bonus of gold. I would rather go for Sun Tzu or Sistine Chapel at the time I can have Great Library.
It is good for its bunch of cultural points though.
You must be a much better player as I am. In my only Deity game(GOTM 7) the AI built it around 700 BC.
Besides, as you say, on Monarch it is only a bonus of gold. I would rather go for Sun Tzu or Sistine Chapel at the time I can have Great Library.
It is good for its bunch of cultural points though.
JuicyCivNewbie
Greatest civ player ever!
I woud only build it if I got a few Great Leaders (enough to build Forbidden Palace, Pyramids, Great Library, in that order, in other words a minumum of 2 leaders).
I used to be a fan of the Great Libray, but now I think it is a waste of shields (although the MP strategy mentioned seems interesting). If I am behind in tech, there are several more efficient methods available to catch up. If I am ahead in tech, I actually want another civ to catch up with the Great Library in order to increase the diversity of research paths and potentially save me some research time. In a low level game, when I am trying to climb the tech tree as fast as possible, I usually research deep, with the hopes that the AI will research broad. I got through the ancient age on warlord by 410 B.C. by beelining to Literature and then Republic. Got two techs from huts and demanded or traded for the rest. Basically gave techs to the two most advanced rivals to bring them into the Middle Ages with me. I am concentrating my research on the smart, happy, an rich portion of the tech tree in hopes that my rivals will go the military path. The third most advanced rival is building the Great Library which may end up a good thing for me. The other civ that I know of is far behind in tech and is my neighbor and my b*tch. Their capitol is the future location of my Forbidden Palace.
robinm
Chieftain
On Deity I feel the GL is at its strongest.
I tend to start off with a small ICS territory them find a neigbor , hook up to iron or horses, get enough tech for horsemen or swordsmen, build a military for a few turns then go on the rampage. I keep their cities , and depending on the next nearest neigbor I might go through them too. My tiny ICS towns just build a barracks them units, thats it. One town ( possibly capital, often not as I plan to move the capital) will be designated to develop. Tax is 100%, unless I feel 10 % luxuries will make me more efficient, and I only try to trade or bully for techs that lead to literature, contacts and world maps. I try to time literature and a palace prebuild to get the GL soon afterwards, and often get 10 + techs the next turnd from other civs. The whole point is not to pay anything for techs I'll soon get for free anyway, and can't utilise as I'm busy building units everywhere.
I stay on 100% tax until Literature is gifted to me, then I often find I can buy the next 5 - 10 techs in the middle ages with the huge cash pile I've built. As I do no research I need no librarys and universities, leaving me free to concentrate onthe other city improvements. This does leave me behind in culture, so I tend to build colusseums even if the town doesn't strictly need them. Clearly at some point I have to join the SCience race , but I generally leave this until after Industiralisation so that its a quick build of library then Uni , then move the slider.
Robin
I tend to start off with a small ICS territory them find a neigbor , hook up to iron or horses, get enough tech for horsemen or swordsmen, build a military for a few turns then go on the rampage. I keep their cities , and depending on the next nearest neigbor I might go through them too. My tiny ICS towns just build a barracks them units, thats it. One town ( possibly capital, often not as I plan to move the capital) will be designated to develop. Tax is 100%, unless I feel 10 % luxuries will make me more efficient, and I only try to trade or bully for techs that lead to literature, contacts and world maps. I try to time literature and a palace prebuild to get the GL soon afterwards, and often get 10 + techs the next turnd from other civs. The whole point is not to pay anything for techs I'll soon get for free anyway, and can't utilise as I'm busy building units everywhere.
I stay on 100% tax until Literature is gifted to me, then I often find I can buy the next 5 - 10 techs in the middle ages with the huge cash pile I've built. As I do no research I need no librarys and universities, leaving me free to concentrate onthe other city improvements. This does leave me behind in culture, so I tend to build colusseums even if the town doesn't strictly need them. Clearly at some point I have to join the SCience race , but I generally leave this until after Industiralisation so that its a quick build of library then Uni , then move the slider.
Robin
