Trying Emperor for the first time. NOOB questions inside!

[fingle]

I've been an avid Civ3 player for many years now, but hadn't actually attempted to finish a game in a long time. For me, the best part is expanding and finding sweet spots to build cities. As such I generally play with a good friend in small multiplayer maps on Regent difficultly. When I found this site I was energized to try to test my skills at a much harder difficultly, namely Emperor. I read the strategy articles, but it really is a lot of information to synthesize in one sitting.

Anyway, I've started a campaign as the Iroquois on C3C. Its Emperor, 70% continents, normal settings, sedentary barbs. I got a pretty awesome start and quickly expanded, but now I've hit a wall against from the east and south from the Byz and the Netherlands.

My questions are:

In the early stages of the game, what sorts of things should I be building? In my capital I build a granary and then settlers, then in the next cities I build a warrior and more settlers. As I fill in the gaps some cities are never going to make settlers. What do I have these newer cities build first? I've been making temples in ones that are on the edges of my territory so it culturally expands faster. And granaries in ones that are near high food production. Is this right? And what about barracks? How many cities should have barracks?

Workers. I start out with one worker for a while and try to connect all my cities, irrigating and mining along the way. Eventually I start to build more and soon I have a horde or workers. All the bonus grasslands have mines and all the places that need irrigation are irrigated. Do I automate? Keep mining and irrigating everything in sight?

Armies. Once every city has all the buildings it can build it just keeps pumping out military units. If I can't support them and I don't want to build settlers or workers, what should I make? Do I just go to war to try to expand a little and kill off some guys? Wealth?

Science and Happiness sliders. It seems that at the very beginning, turning the science all the way off doesn't do much. It really doesn't add much gpt. Also, how high should I slide the happy slider up? It's been around 20% so I don't have to replace working citizens with entertainment ones.

I guess most of my problems are with balance. The AI are so ahead in techs that I really have nothing to build for a while. I want my civ to appear powerful to other AI opponents, but they constantly push me around. I have a save from 170 BC that I'll attach. Any advice would be great. I think I might be a little in over my head.

here's my saved game

Thanks a lot guys!!

 

[fingle]

here's my save, didn't realize you could attach stuff.

View attachment FINGLE Hiawatha of the Iroquois, 170 BC.SAV

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome to CFC, fingle!

Let me start with the caveat that I've never beaten Demigod. Emperor is the highest level that I've ever beaten, but I've beaten it enough times to feel comfortable trying to help out here.

I took a peek at your save through CivAssist II and a couple of things struck me right away. It's 170 BC and you only have 7 cities. You're in last place of the civs that you know. The Egyptians have 16, the Byzantines have 10 and the Dutch have 8. That tells me that you didn't expand fast enough in the early game. You're an agri civ and had fish, game and sugar around Salamanca. Putting out settlers for expansion shouldn't have been a problem.

Niagra falls is placed CxxxxxC from Salamanca. That means that there's a tile in there that can never be used by any city.

You've only got 8 workers and 0 slaves. Watch for opportunities to buy slaves from the AI, or to kill settler pairs. It's hard to come up with enough workers in the early game, but you need them.

You've got a temple in every city. This leads me to the question: What victory condition do you want? That is a question that you should answer early. If you want a cultural victory, then temples are necessary. If all you really want is to beat up on the AI, don't bother with them.

I see irrigated grass in despotism. Why? The despotism penalty means that those were wasted those worker turns.

You have 12 swords, but I can't see your iron. Did you buy iron? Also, I don't see any horses. If you want to go a-warring, I'd suggest buying some horses (or maybe you have them and I just don't see them) & build a stack of MWs. Then go stomp someone.

You're falling behind in tech. As the Iros, you started with Alpha, so you probably should have beelined the Republic slingshot. Get some boats out to find the other continent. Maybe you can trade yourself back into this game.

Why are you paying the Byzantines? You've got 7 turns left of paying them 6 gpt, but I don't know what you bought.

That's all I see in CA2. I don't think I'll have time to look at this any more thoroughly today, but I'll try to answer some of your other questions.

. . . . In the early stages of the game, what sorts of things should I be building? In my capital I build a granary and then settlers, then in the next cities I build a warrior and more settlers. As I fill in the gaps some cities are never going to make settlers. What do I have these newer cities build first? I've been making temples in ones that are on the edges of my territory so it culturally expands faster. And granaries in ones that are near high food production. Is this right?

What to build . . it depends. You've got the theory on granaries right. Build them in high-food cities that you will then use as settler pumps or worker pumps.

Temples, temples, temples. Why do you want them? As I said above, if you're shooting for a culture victory, go ahead and build them. You don't need them for conquest, though.

And what about barracks? How many cities should have barracks?

Before I answer this, let me just say that I stink with culture victories. I'm a warmonger. So my answer is this: Any city that can build offensive units in a reasonable time frame gets a rax.

Workers. I start out with one worker for a while and try to connect all my cities, irrigating and mining along the way. Eventually I start to build more and soon I have a horde or workers. All the bonus grasslands have mines and all the places that need irrigation are irrigated. Do I automate? Keep mining and irrigating everything in sight?

Do not automate. That's just letting the AI make decisions for you. You can do a better job than the AI in managing them.

Here's what I do: Expand until I run out of room. Then go make more room at some AI's expense. My workers do not stop working until my continent is railed.

Armies. Once every city has all the buildings it can build it just keeps pumping out military units. If I can't support them and I don't want to build settlers or workers, what should I make? Do I just go to war to try to expand a little and kill off some guys? Wealth?

I've underlined the problem that I see. Do not build buildings simply because you can. A city needs absolutely nothing to survive. The only question is what the empire needs for a city to have. Only build buildings that will do the empire some good.

Science and Happiness sliders. It seems that at the very beginning, turning the science all the way off doesn't do much. It really doesn't add much gpt. Also, how high should I slide the happy slider up? It's been around 20% so I don't have to replace working citizens with entertainment ones.

In order to avoid riots, you only need as many happy citizens as unhappy ones. A city with 1 happy, 3 content and 1 unhappy will not riot. Raise the lux slider enough to keep your cities from rioting. (The number of happy citizens plays a role in scoring I think, so if you're playing for score or doing a milk run, you will need to raise it more than that, I suspect.)

In the early game, the science slider won't appear to do much. You won't be generating a whole lot of raw commerce. Nonetheless, get in the habit of turning it down on the last turn of research. It's only going to add a few gold in the early game, but it makes a substantial difference in your treasury over the course of the game.

I guess most of my problems are with balance. The AI are so ahead in techs that I really have nothing to build for a while. I want my civ to appear powerful to other AI opponents, but they constantly push me around. I have a save from 170 BC that I'll attach. Any advice would be great. I think I might be a little in over my head.

I don't understand the part about "the AI are so ahead in techs that I really have nothing to build for a while. I want my civ to appear powerful to other AI opponents, but they constantly push me around." Build military. That will not only make you appear strong, it will make you actually be strong. Then you can go out and clear some territory.

 

[fingle]

First of all, thanks a lot for your detailed response! Very helpful indeed.

You've only got 8 workers and 0 slaves. Watch for opportunities to buy slaves from the AI, or to kill settler pairs. It's hard to come up with enough workers in the early game, but you need them.

So I should be trying to pick off settlers here and there? Wouldn't that piss off the other Civs around me and make it difficult for trade later on?

You've got a temple in every city. This leads me to the question: What victory condition do you want? That is a question that you should answer early. If you want a cultural victory, then temples are necessary. If all you really want is to beat up on the AI, don't bother with them.

I built temples because I didn't have anything else to build besides military units or barracks. I was already over my troop limit. Should I go to wealth? Also I wanted to get my city to expand so I could get the extra tiles for population.

I see irrigated grass in despotism. Why? The despotism penalty means that those were wasted those worker turns.

I irrigated because I didn't know what else to do with them. I'd connected all my cities, irrigated the wheat, floodplain, and cows. I'd mined all the bonus grassland.

You have 12 swords, but I can't see your iron. Did you buy iron? Also, I don't see any horses. If you want to go a-warring, I'd suggest buying some horses (or maybe you have them and I just don't see them) & build a stack of MWs. Then go stomp someone.

I had to build a trash city next to iron in the southern part of my land to get the iron. I started building swordsmen because they're the best offensive unit I could get.

You're falling behind in tech. As the Iros, you started with Alpha, so you probably should have beelined the Republic slingshot. Get some boats out to find the other continent. Maybe you can trade yourself back into this game.

I fell behind because I wasn't making enough gpt to pay other Civs for their techs. They were asking wayyy too much, that's why I ended up paying the Byzantines 6 gpt.

Do not automate. That's just letting the AI make decisions for you. You can do a better job than the AI in managing them.

Here's what I do: Expand until I run out of room. Then go make more room at some AI's expense. My workers do not stop working until my continent is railed.

Okay, but what do I have them do after I've got a bunch of mines and irrigation in key areas and all my cities are connected? Clear all the forest?



Thanks again for the nice response. I'm still a little confused, but I expect the best bet is to keep playing until I get the hang of it..

 

[Aabraxan]

First of all, thanks a lot for your detailed response! Very helpful indeed.

My pleasure. I hope it helps.

Frankly, if you look at some of the other "newbie needs help" threads that are around, I think you'll see more of the same advice that I gave you. Your empire seems to be suffering from some fairly typical, & easily corrected, mistakes.

So I should be trying to pick off settlers here and there? Wouldn't that piss off the other Civs around me and make it difficult for trade later on?

Sure it'll make them mad. You'll have to declare war to pick off their settlers. But it won't necessarily impede your trading. Declaring war on a civ affects their attitude towards you, but does not automatically affect your reputation. That's different.

I built temples because I didn't have anything else to build besides military units or barracks. I was already over my troop limit. Should I go to wealth? Also I wanted to get my city to expand so I could get the extra tiles for population.

What else did you need? There are two ways to deal with being over the troop limit: (1) Disband units to decrease your military; or (2) expand by force (increasing the number of towns under your control) to increase support. I suggest the latter.

Why did you need the extra tiles for pop? Not one of your towns is over size 7 & you still look like you've got a lot of unworked tiles. Most of your towns them will not exceed size 12 until the Industrial Age. That's a long way off from where you're sitting.

Wealth is fine for very late game, out in the specialist farms. Don't build wealth in the early game or in your core.

I irrigated because I didn't know what else to do with them. I'd connected all my cities, irrigated the wheat, floodplain, and cows. I'd mined all the bonus grassland.

Do you know how the despotism penalty works? In order to keep from wasting worker turns in despotism, a rule of thumb has evolved: Mine green, irrigate brown. That way, you still get some benefit from all of your worker turns.

I had to build a trash city next to iron in the southern part of my land to get the iron. I started building swordsmen because they're the best offensive unit I could get.

If you can get all your swords in one place, a stack of 12 swordsmen ought to be enough to go take a few Byzantine towns. Just wait until your gpt deal ends or you'll trash your reputation.

I fell behind because I wasn't making enough gpt to pay other Civs for their techs. They were asking wayyy too much, that's why I ended up paying the Byzantines 6 gpt.

No. You fell behind because you didn't expand fast enough in the very early game and because you built structures that you didn't need. Then you wound up paying the other civs for their techs and now you're going broke. Take those swords and go do some Pointy Stick Research. (Beat on an AI until it will give you techs for peace.)

Okay, but what do I have them do after I've got a bunch of mines and irrigation in key areas and all my cities are connected? Clear all the forest?

I see a lot of unimproved tiles. 6 of your 7 cities are working unimproved tiles. Put those laggards back to work! Road everything in sight. Build mines or irrigate every tile that's worked by a citizen. Then go back and improve the rest. Clear forests to speed the building of improvements, like raxes, harbors and libraries.

Thanks again for the nice response. I'm still a little confused, but I expect the best bet is to keep playing until I get the hang of it..

You're not any more confused than any of the players from the other "newbie needs help" threads. I'm sure other players will be along to offer advice. Good luck & keep us posted!

 

[fingle]

Well I started another game and have been doing pretty well. I chose the Maya. I began on an island with the Vikings and the Babs. I played through the expansion stage first to see where I needed to make cities. Then I started over and spread out accordingly. Worked out pretty well. I was bigger and more powerful than everyone else. The Vikings picked a fight with me and I smashed them into oblivion with an endless parade of Swordsmen. I finally managed to finish them off recently and now have the Babylonians to worry about.

I'm wondering how I should continue. They are furious with me because we already had a little fight. They won't trade anything with me and I'm already getting way behind in techs. Should I continue the Swordsmen rampage or wait til I get Medieval Infantry?

Should I go straight for Astronomy so I can go sailing around? It would be nice to make contact with the other tribes first...

I think I've got the ancient stage down pretty good, I'm just wondering how I should go about the future.

View attachment Smoke-Jaguar of the Maya, 990 AD.SAV

 

[Snarkhunter]

I'm wondering how I should continue. They are furious with me because we already had a little fight. They won't trade anything with me and I'm already getting way behind in techs. Should I continue the Swordsmen rampage or wait til I get Medieval Infantry?

Should I go straight for Astronomy so I can go sailing around? It would be nice to make contact with the other tribes first...

I can't open your save from here, but: if swords are still working, no reason to stop. You might consider how far from MI you are, though, & also stockpile gold for upgrading those swords (don't upgrade any elites you have just yet, you want to try to get military great leaders with them in easy combats) if you are closing in on the tech. "Furious" doesn't really matter in trading--I've had civs be furious with me the whole game while trading briskly right and left with them.

As for sailing, you don't need astronomy to see the world, if you don't mind cold-bloodedly risking a few ships. Build half a dozen galleys & send them into the oceans to see what they can find while they live (you have to move them tile by tile during their movement to send them into "forbidden" water, but they can still move their full allowance in a turn once you know that trick). They don't always die as soon as they sail into the ocean; if you build enough of them & send them off, some will live to reach coast elsewhere, then you can explore more effectively & contact the other civs.

kk

 

[capnvonbaron]

lol... "pointy stick research." Nice, braxy

 

[Exwing17]

Hi there, I’d just like to tag into this thread briefly if you don’t mind!

I’m thinking of making the step-up to the big boys level of Emperor. Aabraxan, you mentioned that you should never build something in a city that the Empire doesn’t need. I do tend to fall into the category of thinking to locally about cities and in some cases building structures because I can’t upkeep any more units! If you don’t want buildings, and can’t afford units, what should you build?

Additionally I’ve started using CXXC, and I love it. So that obviously would keep my military at high limits, so…If I’m not at my support limit should I be building as much offence as I can?

I’m a bit of a warmonger, but have learnt from my recent space race games that the computer is scared of your military if you have loads of offence (that’s because it calculates offence as more powerful right?).

Is there any forums you’d recommend reading before I make this big jump?

p.s. I love the pointy stick research.

 

[Aabraxan]

As much as I'd love to take credit for the phrase "pointy stick research," I can't. I picked it up from this forum.

Exwing17:

I’m thinking of making the step-up to the big boys level of Emperor. Aabraxan, you mentioned that you should never build something in a city that the Empire doesn’t need. I do tend to fall into the category of thinking to locally about cities and in some cases building structures because I can’t upkeep any more units! If you don’t want buildings, and can’t afford units, what should you build?

If you can't afford units, how can you afford more buildings? Part of the decision on what to build depends on your victory condition. Think about the Empire's return on the investment.

As I mentioned above, unit support can be cured in several ways: (1) decrease troops; or (2) increase support. (I suppose you could also switch governments, but that's a whole extra anarchy, so I'll leave it out for this discussion.) If a building will pay for itself, and return something to the Empire, it may be worth it. If not, don't build it. Temples and libraries are prime examples. Shooting for a culture win? Build some temples & do it early for the culture-doubling. Going for conquest or space race? You probably don't need any more culture than provided by libraries. The question, though, is what towns need a library. Not every town needs a temple, library, university, barracks, etc. If you build everything in every town, you're wasting shields and gold for zero return. Take a look at the article linked in my signature for more information on the multipliers.

Additionally I’ve started using CXXC, and I love it. So that obviously would keep my military at high limits, so…If I’m not at my support limit should I be building as much offence as I can?

Yes. I've seem vmxa (who is a heavy-duty warmonger) comment that one of his rules of thumb is to never have fewer units than his unit support allows. Buildings have their uses, and there are times when they are a great investment. However, there is one thing that units can consistently do that buildings cannot: Take towns. That leads to more unit support. That means that I can go out and take even more towns. . . Also, if you're in republic, don't forget that in C3C, unit support is 1/3/4. So clearing that hurdle from size 6 to size 7 makes a big difference in the support that a city provides.

I’m a bit of a warmonger, but have learnt from my recent space race games that the computer is scared of your military if you have loads of offence (that’s because it calculates offence as more powerful right?).

I'm not the expert on the AI's view of the human player, but my understanding of the matter is that you're correct: The AI places more value on offense than defense.

Is there any forums you’d recommend reading before I make this big jump?

p.s. I love the pointy stick research.

Hit the War Academy and look for an article called "The Great Leap" by Ision. For me, the Regent-Monarch step wasn't a big deal. Emperor is a different ballgame, though. The biggest problem for me was dealing with unhappiness. Emperor is the lowest level on which your second citizen is born unhappy, so you've got to monitor it pretty closely. Chasing luxes becomes much more important.

Then head down to the SG forum and look for Training Day Games. Lots of those are played at Emperor, and there's lots of great discussion not only about the "what-to-dos," but also about the "why-to-do-its."

Good luck in making the Great Leap.

 

[vmxa]

I don't know if these are still around, but TR02 and TR03 should be worth a look in the SG forum. IIRC Bede was in TR03, but I think it was Demi. I mention Bede as he is very good at giving details for training.

It is a shame that some of the better SG's played a few years back are either gone or their files are lost. I am not talking about the crazy come backs or the high level games, but the training games and the levels like Monarch and Emperor.

When was the last time you even saw a Monarch training SG? Some of the problems seen in Emperor games, comes from moving up before really getting solid on Monarch.

The fun reads are mostly still around as they are linked in the list of best games. That list has not seen a new game added in a very long time either.

BTW a bit of work was done to make the advisers better evaluate strengths, but it was not well done. It is still more about numbers than values. Defensive units are considered low, so they do not make the AI fear you in terms of DOW.

A defender or defenders will make it bypass a town or a stack, such as Infantry or armies.

 

[Exwing17]

Cheers! I had a bash at Emperor briefly last night...learnt some quick lessons.

The AI will take undefended border towns! I lost heavily, had no luxuries in the immidiate area...next attemp coming up!

 

[vmxa]

If you are weak compared to them, you need to be prepared for an attack. If you are strong, you may still get attacked, once the land is gone.

 

[ecuwins]

Getting that Despotism to Republic transition down pat is a huge key. Before the period of anarchy make sure to pop settlers and/or workers from any cities that will get hit with starvation due to the lack of effect from MPs and the lux slider during anarchy. Next, during the anarchy, start moving all of those regular warriors to outer ring cities. The idea is to disband the warriors in high corruption cities, unless they are needed for defense. After the anarchy you will want to get as many core cities up to size 7 as possible. You will also want to get a marketplace in those core cities as well.

Things to keep in mind:
Units cost 2gpt
Size 7 cities produce extra gold in the city center (+1 non-commercial? +2 commercial?).
Size 7 cities pay the unit costs for 3 units instead of 1 (that's like getting +4gpt).
Know where your money is going and where it is coming from.

I'm sure more points can be made about this but I hope you get the gist of it. Getting that transition down along with getting good at trading has really helped me start winning some Emperor games.

This would work a little different if going Monarchy as MPs would still be in play. You shouldn't be doing that anyway.

 

[CommandoBob]

Knowing how you plan to win is a great help in deciding what city improvements you need.

However, in your core cities, the ones with low corruption and high production, you will probably need a library and market in each of them. Library for science, market for happiness. In some of them you will need a barracks, since the AI won't respect you if you are weak. If you don't build next to a river or lake, you need an aqueduct to grow to size 12. You may or may not want a granary.

In your semi-core cities you need a courthouse (to reduce corruption), library and market. Barracks and aqueduct are optional.

Far away from your capital you don't need anything, since the cities will be 90% corrupt. In these places you either build bombarding units (since your core will be building only veteran units), worker or settlers. If you are building cities, place them close together out here. If you are capturing them, consider selling the improvements you don't need. And then build cities all around the newly captured ones (science farms).

So what do you in your core after you got all that you need built? Depends on how you want to win and the in-game situation. Sometimes you need science, sometimes you need weapons and sometimes you need cash inflow. If you know what you need (and also know what you don't need!) then you can find the right improvement to meet that need.