Trying out new Pantheons, need input!

[Browd]

Depends. How many cities are you aiming for? If you're stopping at 3-4 tall cities and anticipate a few later puppets, then MoG offers a pretty poor return, while extra 10% growth may help your cities explode when stacked with other Tradition bonuses (particularly after aqueducts).

 

[Optional]

Admitted, I said Religious Idols when I should have said Goddess of Festivals. Although they're quite similar, they both give +1 faith and +1 culture. One works with gold and silver, the other with wine and incense.
I didn't mean Monasteries, as that's a later belief, not a pantheon.

Yes, Sacred Waters helps the early expansion phase. Ceremonial Burial becomes an option at a much later game stage. I like Ceremonial Burial as well, but it'll only apply to your holy city for a while after you've picked it. Your religion first needs to spread before other cities will give the benefit.
If you put 3 or 4 cities down before choosing a religion, and they're on rivers, this means 3 or 4 happiness at that stage with Sacred Waters. Often before all your luxes are hooked up and before you have the chance to ally many City States.
Sacred Waters is the only pantheon that gives happiness. Comparing it with later beliefs that give happiness is pointless, that would be like comparing warriors to longswords; they're not available in the same time frame. Once you're religion is well established, and you've picked both Sacred Waters and Ceremonial Burial, it's Ceremonial Burial that I expect to give a greater benefit.

Fertility Rites would be great for India or that type empire setup, but quickly expanding could easily counter the effect because of unhappiness.

 

[joncnunn]

The problem with Goddess of Love is that it only kicks in after your pantheon has 6 followers. On average, the city has to have 8 citizens for it have that. With Sacred Waters, it kicks in immediately.

Ceremonial Burial also kills in immediately but is for all with cities your religion. (Yes, it's a founder; but if you're going wide, you're going Liberty and will get a free Prophet early either directly or via GE to rush HS.)
And there are quite a few +1 follower ones that are effectively immediate as soon as you found a religion. (Like the one only needing a Shrine & 3 followers); although I much prefer the +2 follower with a Temple & 6 followers.

Fertility Rites is indeed for tall empires; not wide ones.

 

[whyidie]

I'm a fan of fertility rites. If I can get TOA I'll usually go for fertility rites. If I want to go as wide and tall as possible I'll use the remaining religion choices on happy beliefs.

There is the rare game when I can add in Hanging Gardens and watch my cities grow. Its usually a fight though as AI loves it just as much and more often than not I'm usually bound by happiness and have absolutely zero chance at Notre Dame. But there is no better feeling than having 6 AI size cities.

 

[Seabastian Civ]

God of War? Has anyone ever taken this one? It seems like one of the few pantheons that continues to give benefits throughout the game. Is it any good? How much faith does it generate for you? Do you have to be adjacent to your cities or just within your territory?

 

[joncnunn]

God of War? Has anyone ever taken this one? It seems like one of the few pantheons that continues to give benefits throughout the game. Is it any good? How much faith does it generate for you? Do you have to be adjacent to your cities or just within your territory?

Per the war academy, must be within four tiles of your city with this belief.
It's not clear what would happen if there are multiple cities with this belief within four hexes.
Killing barbs will count. (One half of the killed unit's combat strength.)
Appears better if you have aggressive barbs on.

 

[iconocast]

How good is fertility rights, really? I mean, +10% seems nice, but does it offer more value than say, messenger of the gods?

imo its as good as a growth wonder

 

[tommynt]

another thread discussing pantheon every 2 days when they r just 100% situational?

Its like discussing if moving left or right or forward on next street cross is best.

 

[Zezima]

The problem with Goddess of Love is that it only kicks in after your pantheon has 6 followers. On average, the city has to have 8 citizens for it have that. With Sacred Waters, it kicks in immediately.

Are you sure this is true? This entire time I thought Goddess of Love gave +1 Happy for cities with 6 population, not followers. If so, it would explain why it doesn't seem to have such an immediate effect.

Having a city with 1 wine resource? = 3 faith and 6 culture. Have a city with 3 of the same resource? = 3 faith and 12 culture. It can be fairly strong for a cultural game

I'm a little confused by this assessment. Wouldn't a city with 3 workable wines, Goddess of Festivals, and Monasteries produce +8 faith and +8 culture? (1 culture/faith per wine/incense from GoF, 1 culture/faith per wine/incense from Monasteries, and the base 2 culture/faith from the Monastery) I HAVE done this combo before a couple times and it does make for some pretty awesome tiles.

I agree with Sacred Path, it can be an awesome pick for a pure jungle start. With Rationalism and trading posts you are looking at 2 food, 3 science, 1-4 gold (rivers, GAs, economics), and 1 culture per tile. The only problem is the typical lack of production, which isn't so much the fault of Sacred Path as it is jungle starts in general.

 

[Optional]

I'm sure Browd has a reason to feel frustrated now. He has written an excellent War Academy for us that answers a lot of questions: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=481906.

Yeah, Goddess of Love talks about citizens, not followers. Some beliefs indeed take followers into account as well, like Religious Centre.

 

[Zezima]

I'm sure Browd has a reason to feel frustrated now. He has written an excellent War Academy for us that answers a lot of questions: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=481906.

Yeah, Goddess of Love talks about citizens, not followers. Some beliefs indeed take followers into account as well, like Religious Centre.

I referenced his guide after reading that post as well. I didn't expect it to be wrong but the posts in this topic seemed to indicate otherwise.

Seems that Goddess of Love is in fact population-based, like God of Craftsmen, etc.

 

[joncnunn]

How good is fertility rights, really? I mean, +10% seems nice, but does it offer more value than say, messenger of the gods?

Fertility Rights is much more suitable for Tall empires; it tends to be stacked with the Tradition policies also granting more food.

Messenger of the Gods is much more suitable for Wide empires.

 

[Browd]

Are you sure this is true? This entire time I thought Goddess of Love gave +1 Happy for cities with 6 population, not followers. If so, it would explain why it doesn't seem to have such an immediate effect.

I'm sure Browd has a reason to feel frustrated now. He has written an excellent War Academy for us that answers a lot of questions: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=481906.

Yeah, Goddess of Love talks about citizens, not followers. Some beliefs indeed take followers into account as well, like Religious Centre.

I referenced his guide after reading that post as well. I didn't expect it to be wrong but the posts in this topic seemed to indicate otherwise.

Seems that Goddess of Love is in fact population-based, like God of Craftsmen, etc.

Yep, Goddess of Love is city population, not number of followers.

Attached are two screenies from a Celtic game I just fired up. Took GoL (even though this map screamed for Desert Folklore). First screenie shows pop 6, with 5 pantheon followers. Second screenie shows the happiness detail. GoL shows up as "1 from Local City Happiness."

 

[Darkeagle6]

Goddess of Protection is certainly not ideal if you're planning on spreading it to potential target neighbours as a religion later. If you're not actually aiming to found a religion (certainly a valid choice), then it can be useful to fend off a scary early rush. I know it helped me out quite a bit in my first attempt at Deity (not an actual serious attempt, I'm an Emperor-level player, but I just wanted to get a feel fo rit).

Pantheons can be a nice bonus by themselves, and they don't require much investment, unlike a religion (for most civs, anyway). Which Pantheon you choose also has to do with whether or not you're planning on pursuing a religion.

 

[kirbdog]

God Tier - Desert Folklore

Top Tier - God of Craftsmen, Fertility Rites, Messenger of the Gods

Spain Tier - One with nature

Situational (wide or conquest) - Goddess of Love, Sacred Waters

Situational (terrain) - God of the Sea, Goddess of the Hunt, Sacred Path, God of the Open Skies, Oral tradition, Religious Idols, Goddess of Festivals, Stone Circles

Bottom Tier - Ancestor worship, Dance of the aurora, Faith healers, God of war, Goddess of protection, Monument to the gods, Religious settlements

 

[JanghanHong]

God Tier - Desert Folklore

Top Tier - God of Craftsmen, Fertility Rites, Messenger of the Gods

Spain Tier - One with nature

Situational (wide or conquest) - Goddess of Love, Sacred Waters

Situational (terrain) - God of the Sea, Goddess of the Hunt, Sacred Path, God of the Open Skies, Oral tradition, Religious Idols, Goddess of Festivals, Stone Circles

Bottom Tier - Ancestor worship, Dance of the aurora, Faith healers, God of war, Goddess of protection, Monument to the gods, Religious settlements

Desert Folklore is still terrain dependent, also if you spread it to your neighbor who also has some desert, they'll found a religion too and start competing with yours.



I would move Dance of the aurora and Stone Circles up. Stone circles is not terrain based, since marble and stone appears everywhere, and fewer numbers yet +2 is actually better than more and +1 faith, since you don't have population early to work that many tiles anyway. stone circles even makes desert stones good with +2 hammers and +2 faith.


Dance of the aurora is certainly not bottom tier, it fits nicely with terrain dependent ones. You are forgetting the some maps do have a whole bunch of tundra hills that can be mined or even farmed. I had a map once where a city could work 10 tundra river hills. It was giving +20 food, +20 gold, +20 hammers, and +10 faith during a golden age.


Instead of "Top Tier", you should call it "you can't really go wrong with this" tier.

And instead of bottom tier, you should make a tier called "Foregoing religion" tier, If you get pantheon by accident and you don't plan to go for religion since your friend is playing Byzantine or something I guess. Monument to the gods especially, falls under this category.


Meanwhile, Religious Settlements and Ancestor worship is trash. Everybody either moves too fast in tech for any puppets to build shrines, they'll often build stock exchange before they'll build one.

Also, if you are going wide, Goddess of Love is much more reliable.

Also2, I was wrong about followers, but it still does only kick in if the city is following the pantheon though.

 

[kirbdog]

Desert Folklore is still terrain dependent, also if you spread it to your neighbor who also has some desert, they'll found a religion too and start competing with yours.

It's obviously god tier.

Stone circles is not terrain based, since marble and stone appears everywhere

No, it doesn't. Terrain-based here means based on the terrain around your capital and/or first few cities. It's fairly common to get a start without stone or marble.

Dance of the aurora is certainly not bottom tier, it fits nicely with terrain dependent ones. You are forgetting the some maps do have a whole bunch of tundra hills that can be mined or even farmed. I had a map once where a city could work 10 tundra river hills. It was giving +20 food, +20 gold, +20 hammers, and +10 faith during a golden age.

The faith pantheons derive much of their power from being good early on, establishing a quick religion. Being able to work hills requires the surplus food to do it and also requires that superior tiles are not there to be worked instead. It's a fairly terrible pantheon.

Instead of "Top Tier", you should call it "you can't really go wrong with this" tier.

They also happen to be really strong, stronger than most of the terrain-dependent ones even on a good day.

And instead of bottom tier, you should make a tier called "Foregoing religion" tier, If you get pantheon by accident and you don't plan to go for religion since your friend is playing Byzantine or something I guess.

Sometimes less is more.

Also, if you are going wide, Goddess of Love is much more reliable.

It's more a question of early benefit versus larger late benefit. Sacred Waters comes into effect right from the start and can allow the wide player to settle cities more quickly, but Goddess of Love has higher potential. (Also, as the number of cities with rivers approaches the number of cities total, the relative strength of Sacred Waters, naturally, increases.) They both deserve mention.

 

[Matthew.]

Goddess of the hunt is one of my favorite. I also often take "feed the world" or whatever it is called. With a few camp tiles and shrine/temple, it is like a free Hanging Gardens without any of the stress of trying to beat the AI to it.

 

[Seabastian Civ]

God Tier - Desert Folklore

Top Tier - God of Craftsmen, Fertility Rites, Messenger of the Gods

Spain Tier - One with nature

Situational (wide or conquest) - Goddess of Love, Sacred Waters

Situational (terrain) - God of the Sea, Goddess of the Hunt, Sacred Path, God of the Open Skies, Oral tradition, Religious Idols, Goddess of Festivals, Stone Circles

Bottom Tier - Ancestor worship, Dance of the aurora, Faith healers, God of war, Goddess of protection, Monument to the gods, Religious settlements

Very nice. Could you explain why god of craftsmen is so high? I've never taken that one.

 

[joncnunn]

Very nice. Could you explain why god of craftsmen is so high? I've never taken that one.

It's one of the pantheons much more suitable for wide empires than tall empires along with Messenger of the Gods.