TSG 249 After Actions Thread

Nizef

Emperor
GOTM Staff
Joined
Oct 22, 2018
Messages
1,294
Location
Finland
In this thread you can post the results of your game. Please state your victory/loss date (preferably in the post title) and describe your path to glory in this post! Players are encouraged to provide feedback on the game.

- Did you play peacefully or warlike? Did you use your UU?
- What technologies did you prioritize?
- What Social Policies did you choose and in what order? Which Ideology did you choose?
- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them?
- Final remarks?
 
Diplo victory in t183.

Summary
This was a very peaceful game in the true spirit of Swords into Plowshares, which I picked along with Pagodas. I think Austria was simply unable to raise the money for CS marriages, even though there was a period mid-game when I might have struggled to prevent them. So, while I was prepared to switch to a "war economy", it seemed unnecessary since Austria never had more than 300 gold to their name. So, the only war I had was an early one against the Zulu, which I agreed to join to make Monty happy. The only skirmish was actually when a Zulu scout attacked an exploring atlatlist, who had recently captured a Zulu settler.

Early stages
I am still exploring Monarchy, after being a bullheaded Liberty player for a long time, so this would be an attempt at a tall civilization. There would eventually be 3 Mayan cities, reasonably well fed with caravans (while cargo ships sadly played a very small role) and all eligible for building observatories. Like @raider980 (see opening spoiler), I got an early National College (turn 38), backed by Great Library, which in turn was backed by the 30% wonder discount afforded by the social policy Aristocracy and the pantheon Monument to the Gods. (Me like.) Even though this delayed settlers a lot, I don't consider it a mistake (@raider980 ) because a settler would have delayed NC very much, and made it more expensive. Also, that would have forced us to build a library first in the second (and third) city rather than pyramid. In fact, the rather early NC, adding 15 bpt, was the one thing I was most pleased with. Could it have been even earlier? I usually pick all the first tier techs before moving on to Writing, simply because the decrease in turns to completion is likely to be more significant in a second tier tech as the game progresses.

Scouts would have explored the rough terrain faster than atlatists, but with no goody huts I could not be bothered with them. This was probably a mistake contributing to the fact that I managed no early worker steals at all - it took the captured Zulu settler mentioned above ages to reach the home area. At least one scout would have been better. But on the other hand, with what indeed seemed like raging barbs, that scout might have been killed quickly. Starting builds to the best of my recollection: atlatlist, pyramid, atlatlist, granary, atlatlist, worker, Great Library (free Philosophy, while studying Drama and Poetry), National College. The worker had a hard time getting things done, first with no protection at all and and only later with the starting warrior there to protect it.

The Long Calendar
Theology came in somewhere around turn 50 and the first free great person pick was a great scientist who built an academy. Before the end, all of the Great People were spawned except Great General. (I picked Great Admiral because Bratislava wanted me to.) The Great Engineer was very useful, hurrying Petra in Chichen Itza.

Social Policies
Monarchy, full branch, was first. After Theology I kind of bee-lined for Astronomy in order to unlock Rationalism as soon as possible, and in fact I didn't have to choose a crap policy while waiting for Rationalism. So full Rationalism was second, although interrupted once by Patronage opener so as not to risk missing Forbidden Palace. Then I completed the Patronage branch.

Ideology
Freedom. The effect of ideology was not huge, except to earn 2 delegates as it smoothly became the World Ideology before anyone else had an ideology at all. I chose Freedom mainly to have the Volunteer Army option available, should Austria suddenly begin to acquire city states, but I think all the ideologies are pretty weak when it comes to supporting a diplomatic victory.

End game
Later bee-lines were Scientific Theory, Plastics and Globalization. The vote came in favourably about 6 turns after Globalization. It is kind of simple to just buy the alliance of the last City States that aren't fans of yours already, so I was glad to ensure the support of La Venta by dispersing a barb camp with a cavalry just a couple of turns before the end. But of course, I made "assurance double sure" by bribing the rest of the CSs too.

Fun Fact
I created and enhanced a religion on the same turn, thanks to getting a prophet from the Long Calendar. (Apart from the Follower Beliefs already mentioned, I picked Interfaith Dialogue as founder's belief and Reliquary as follower belief.)

Reflection
Seeing in retrospect how even at the lowest point of happiness, the number never got below 0, I believe a fourth city should have been built, probably at the river mouth to the northwest of Palenque.

The Unique Unit
I found myself using atlatlists much more than I do normal archers, upgrading them very sparsely and not building any horsemen (just the one knight as the barbs got worse and the need for exploration of the huge eastern island became evident). This was surely a psychological effect unaffected by the fact that once built, they were no better than archers. But I also got the feeling that on this fairly low difficulty level, they were relatively strong vs barbs. On higher levels, barb horsemen can kill an archer outright, but here I believe they didn't even take the crucial 50 hp - and the barb spearmen definitely didn't. This was a rather big factor when setting up a rather extreme builder's game.
 

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Diplo victory in t183.

Summary
I think Austria was simply unable to raise the money for CS marriages, even though there was a period mid-game when I might have struggled to prevent them. So, while I was prepared to switch to a "war economy", it seemed unnecessary since Austria never had more than 300 gold to their name.
Austria?
 
Diplomatic victory turn 155

Settled in place. Worker, atlist, pyramid, settler, atlist, settler, granary, atlist, worker.

Local barbarians were a problem and kept my troops local for a long time, which set back exploration.

Religion was one with nature, followed by initiation rights and pagodas and enhanced (turn 77 with free GP) religious centers and reliquary.

I hit printing press turn 100 and made it to telecommunications on turn 145, 1 turn before the vote, leading to a turn 155 world leader vote.

Maya50.png


Maya103.png


Maya156.png
 
Diplo V - Turn 208
Well, I've gone and done it now. Not only did I submit the game, but I've committed myself to uploading the play to youtube (starting 16-Aug-2024, of course). I have posted an announcement to my page. No idea why readers of this forum would be interested in the announucement (mostly, it's just to let my hundred of followers that they might get some unwanted notifications - and yes, that's a singular "hundred"). I'll add a post to this thread later with the link to the actual playlist, but for now, here's a link to the announcement. It has zero play in the announcement (just me talking with a background), so hopefully that upload falls within the guideline requests for GOTM.

Announcement Link
Spoiler :

Since I'm uploading the play, I don't want to give too many "spoilers" here. However, I recommend zero people actually watch my series. It's about 6.25 hours of someone mostly talking to himself while playing, so the pace of play is slow. Despite that pace, I'm not explaining everything. Certainly, I give some commentary and insight into some of my decisions, but it's not well organized. Intentionally, this is NOT any sort of guide for "how to play". Questionable and outright poor decisions are made - I was just playing to wonder spam and achieve a Diplo V. Mission accomplished!

Although I'm not going into much detail here, I'll certainly run down the highlights including responses to the questions in Nizef's OP.

Responses to OP
Spoiler :
* 100% peaceful game. I did steal a bit of land, though.
* Built too many atlatlists for my taste - so much land, barbs were a pain throughout the game
* Prioritized Theology but was late anyway. For the rest of the game on the way to Globalization, I prioritized techs for wonders, ideology, and world congress proposals.
* Tradition 6 followed by a mix of Patronage and Commerce. An "unexpected" ideology and NO Rationalism.
* 3-city National College and 1 post NC city
* Final remarks? I'm super proud of three Great Admirals despite no war.

Thank you to Nizef and everyone involved with the GOTM.


Highlights
Spoiler :
* 17 World Wonders - all built (some with Great Engineer assistance). List provided below.
* Beaten to 4 wonders - was just slow to the GL. I was same turn beaten to all three others (and I knew in advance via diplomat)
* I have a new appreciation for a certain underutilized Commerce policy
* Use of ideology - I was really shocked when I came up with the plan between Sessions 3 and 4 and elated that it worked.
* In addition to no Rationalism, there was no Great Person saving (of any kind - not just limited to scientists)
* Did I already mention 3 Great Admirals despite no war? I guess those are Great People too, so no GP saving except for Admirals. I waited a bit with one Great General, too.


Wonders (alphabetical per city)
Spoiler :
Palenque:
-- CN Tower
-- Cristo Redentor
-- Eiffel Tower
-- Forbidden Palace
-- Leaning Tower of Pisa
-- Machu Picchu
-- Neuschwanstein
-- Notre Dame
-- Oracle
-- Sistine Chapel
-- Stonehenge

Tikal:
-- Big Ben
-- Hanging Gardens
-- Petra!
-- Sydney Oprea House

Chichen Itza:
-- Broadway
-- Chichen Itza


T207 Screenshot (i.e. same turn as the vote)
Sheesh. So many spoilers in this screenshot. Hope someone tunes into the Let's Play anyway!
Spoiler :

T207-TSG249.jpg

 
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Diplo victory on the first vote; turn 236.

- Did you play peacefully or warlike? Did you use your UU? Yes, I used them like any other archer, but it was nice to be able to build one immediately. In fact that's the first thing I built since there were no ancient ruins. I'm pretty sure I didn't research Archery until after Theology. I played peacefully.

- What technologies did you prioritize? Theology, Civil Service, Astronomy (for the observatories), Radio, Plastics, Globalization.

- What Social Policies did you choose and in what order? Which Ideology did you choose? First the Honor opener to deal with barbs, then Tradition, Patronage, Rationalism, a couple of points in Commerce, and the Exploration opener. Freedom.

- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them? Four cities (see the attached map)

- Final remarks? "Just One More Turn" 😂 I need to get my warmonger on and punish everyone who's been denouncing me for no reason.

20240720121707_1.jpg
 
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Turn 197 diplomatic victory. 4 cities... in pretty much the same places as everyone else in this thread. I played a peaceful game, though Portugal and the Aztec did declare an early war on me. The only battles I got involved with were killing off two triemes and a scout. I think Bratislava bore the brunt of Portugal's aggression for me. I was offered Porto for peace, but took 20gpt instead.

The nearby barbarians were a bit annoying - I made more atalatists than I expected to deal with them. I got world religion on the first vote - having 4 votes that first time round means you can pass just about anything, but in this case there was only one other religion and two or three civs were already following mine. World ideology was passed when I was the only one with an ideology (freedom.) Waiting for the final vote, I knew my treasury was stacked enough to probably buy all the votes I needed, but I moved diplomats into all five capitals, and opened up Treaty Organisation, sending out trade routes to the handful of city states that were unallied. The turn before the vote there was only one city state I needed to throw a bit of cash at, and even that wasn't neccesary as I ended the game with 41/35 votes.
 

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I found this a surprisingly tricky map. My first impression was: wow, these are nice lands, and although they are, I did not initially make the most of them. Seeing all this land, and figuring diplo victory is similar to a science win, I wanted to go 5-city tradition. In addition, because of the King difficulty level, and the Maya long count bonus, I wanted to do Great Library into NC into settlers. However, not only was that plan probably flawed, I played very poorly as well. One flaw is that GL into NC is probably not that good in the first place, and also, is the Maya long count bonus actually that good? Because of the increased great people counters, and because scientists share a pool with merchants and engineers (unlike in e.g. Lekmod, where they have their own spawning pool, and then suddenly it becomes very powerful to spawn engineers and merchants), I'm not sure it is all that impactful. A second flaw is that 5-city tradition needs a lot of workers and a lot of luxuries. The luxuries were simply not there on our little peninsula, and how to obtain workers? As a players who normally plays Deity, you get used to having an abundance of worker steal opportunities.

Then the poor play. It took until around T50 for me to realize this was actually quick speed (silly, since I have extensive experience both in quick and standard paces), and I compounded the worker issue by trying wonders in the capital. Although I managed the barbarian onslaught reasonably well, it was still slowing me down a little. Around T85, I had 5 small cities, very few improved tiles, no happiness (no CS allies and nothing to trade), so I abandoned the game, disgusted with my play.

After a couple of days, I decided to pick up the game again, and have a second attempt, out of competition (again, I feel). The plan was now to go three-city tradition, and One with Nature (what was I thinking Goddess of the Hunt in my first attempt?). First, however, I built an early monument and opened honor to cope with, and farm, all of the barb camps on all of the unsettled lands around me. If you open any Reddit threat on "is opening honor worth it", you will read that all the experts point out that you can never make up the cost of the final social policy from barb kills. However, I feel this game was an exception in the sense that it was good: there were no city states or Deity AI units to clear the barb camps, so for the majority of the game I was farming around 5 camps, and I got all the policies I needed in a timely manner. In addition, the 33% combat bonus against barbarians is actually very helpful in the early game.

After NC, I noticed that Petra had not been built yet, so I founded Uxmal near the desert hills, and long-count engineered Petra. After that, my tech path was universities - workshops - astronomy - Printing Press. Next, the plan was to Oxford Radio, to ensure that city states join the congress in time for the first vote for religion. Then, the final stage of the game is to race to telecommunications. As you can see from the first screenshot, I was close to matching @fiddlesticks 's benchmark, however, not only did I not get the tech, I was also a couple hundred beakers short of telecommunications. In diplo victory attempts, close is very much no cigar though, as I had to wait a very long time for the next vote, for a victory of T173.
Maya_short.png


Maya_victory.png
 
T276 Diplo Victory. Man I'm slow. Picking up from Opening Actions.

- Did you play peacefully or warlike? Did you use your UU?
  • I used the UU early for Barbs but that's it. Planned on playing peacefully but then Monte asked me to go to war against Shaka early - and Shaka never wanted to peace out for the longest time. And I was worried at one point:
    Spoiler T110 Zulu attack :
    T110 Zulu attack.jpg

- What technologies did you prioritize?
  • After Theology, went for the normal tech path except hurried to Radio (I think its radio that gets you the ideology) and then the last tech that gets you votes for Diplomats.

- What Social Policies did you choose and in what order? Which Ideology did you choose?
  • I so wish I would have gone Liberty! That large island to the east had some nice city locations - and a NW (even though I had way too much faith anyway). But after finishing Piety I went full Patronage. Ideology was Freedom, got it second (Portugal was first) and luckily Brazil followed so I didn't have ideological pressure for unhappiness.
    Spoiler Look at all those city spots! :
    Eastern Island.jpg

- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them?
  • Finished with 4 cities, 3 on the home continent and one on the large island to get the two luxes up north.

- Final remarks?
  • A fun game! Haven't finished a diplo victory in a while I don't think. Got it easily on the first WL vote, but way slower than others. And I wish I'd have built scouts (I did build one but he died early and I never replaced him) because exploring the western side of the continent was a PITA with all that rough terrain. I didn't even find the last CS until like T220something!
  • I did peace out with the Zulu at some point but then DoW him later on to liberate Prague. And I decided to take one of his cities and keep pummeling him with planes and ships to teach him a lesson.
Spoiler T276 Diplo Victory! :
T276 Diplo Victory.jpg


Like @raider980 (see opening spoiler), I got an early National College (turn 38), backed by Great Library, which in turn was backed by the 30% wonder discount afforded by the social policy Aristocracy and the pantheon Monument to the Gods. (Me like.) Even though this delayed settlers a lot, I don't consider it a mistake (@raider980 ) because a settler would have delayed NC very much, and made it more expensive
Yea, I'm glad I did it, it was a fun different thing to do. I think Piety is what slowed me down more so than doing this.
 
Diplomatic victory turn 154

continued...

Built an Oracle in the capital at t72 , then had to build Chichen Itza, but having already started building it, I decided to first build a watermill in 2 turns. As a result, in the same year when I was supposed to finish Chichen Itza, the Inca built it. On the 85 or 86 turn, I learned education, on 99 accelerated the Printing Press with help liberty GS.

On the 97th turn, I accepted patronage 4, and then, instead of rationalism, for some reason I closed the patronage in the hope of useful great people from the CS. It was a very serious mistake, because of which I might not be able to learn telecommunications in time. First, I got only 2 great people - a Khan and a Merchant, and as it turned out, the merchant increased the cost of a scientist in the capital, which is why he appeared atthe very last moment - 1-2 turns later and I would not have had time to learn everything in time. Secondly, after I learned industrialization (116) and received an ideology (123-124) I accepted the order, planning to take +25% to science from factories, but almost immediately realized that in this case Iwould not be able to close rationalism in time. and without 2 scientists from the faith, i can forget about telecommunications. And thirdly, with earlier rationalism, I would have won 2-3 turns of science and walked the path to the atomic and information era much more calmly.

By the way, I did not think that GS cost 1.5 times less faith at this speed, and if I had not bought a school / laboratory in Lisbon (6 wonders,captured about turn 115), I could have had 3 scientists from faith (he appeared 5-6 turns after telecommunications). Therefore, after the game, I loaded the save turn95 , accelerated with liberty GS knighthood (95), and with bactun GS Printing Press (96, 3 moves earlier than in game), opened rationalism at 97, and learned industrialization at turn 112 (4t early). I did not play further, but science is already noticeably faster, there are 2 public institutions in stock, so it is obvious that the game should end on turn 151.
 
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Diplo victory at turn 176.
I played in many small sessions with multiple days between so don't remember too much from the game.
I do remember I made a big mistake by opening rationalism too late. Accidently clicked a policy in aesthetics instead of rationalism opener :crazyeye:
Last 15 turns was just clicking next because i had already overshoot the number of votes needed.

Spoiler :
1722157157116.png
 
DV turn 213

I've never tried to run a quick DV before. So I made a few mistakes. In the opening actions thread I said that I went charitable missions on my piety only opener. I should've done Jesuit Education for the instant buys. My 3rd city I should've settled next to the mountain. I should've done less Patronage and a quicker Rationalism. Lastly I forgot to even build the world fair and sorely missed finishing rationalism earlier.

Anyway, Maya are always a blast to have. 0 wars and a friendly Shaka, can't complain at all.
 

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Diplo V - Turn 208
Well, I've gone and done it now. Not only did I submit the game, but I've committed myself to uploading the play to youtube (starting 16-Aug-2024, of course). I have posted an announcement to my page. No idea why readers of this forum would be interested in the announucement (mostly, it's just to let my hundred of followers that they might get some unwanted notifications - and yes, that's a singular "hundred"). I'll add a post to this thread later with the link to the actual playlist, but for now, here's a link to the announcement. It has zero play in the announcement (just me talking with a background), so hopefully that upload falls within the guideline requests for GOTM.

Announcement Link
Spoiler :

Since I'm uploading the play, I don't want to give too many "spoilers" here. However, I recommend zero people actually watch my series. It's about 6.25 hours of someone mostly talking to himself while playing, so the pace of play is slow. Despite that pace, I'm not explaining everything. Certainly, I give some commentary and insight into some of my decisions, but it's not well organized. Intentionally, this is NOT any sort of guide for "how to play". Questionable and outright poor decisions are made - I was just playing to wonder spam and achieve a Diplo V. Mission accomplished!

Although I'm not going into much detail here, I'll certainly run down the highlights including responses to the questions in Nizef's OP.

Responses to OP
Spoiler :
* 100% peaceful game. I did steal a bit of land, though.
* Built too many atlatlists for my taste - so much land, barbs were a pain throughout the game
* Prioritized Theology but was late anyway. For the rest of the game on the way to Globalization, I prioritized techs for wonders, ideology, and world congress proposals.
* Tradition 6 followed by a mix of Patronage and Commerce. An "unexpected" ideology and NO Rationalism.
* 3-city National College and 1 post NC city
* Final remarks? I'm super proud of three Great Admirals despite no war.

Thank you to Nizef and everyone involved with the GOTM.


Highlights
Spoiler :
* 17 World Wonders - all built (some with Great Engineer assistance). List provided below.
* Beaten to 4 wonders - was just slow to the GL. I was same turn beaten to all three others (and I knew in advance via diplomat)
* I have a new appreciation for a certain underutilized Commerce policy
* Use of ideology - I was really shocked when I came up with the plan between Sessions 3 and 4 and elated that it worked.
* In addition to no Rationalism, there was no Great Person saving (of any kind - not just limited to scientists)
* Did I already mention 3 Great Admirals despite no war? I guess those are Great People too, so no GP saving except for Admirals. I waited a bit with one Great General, too.


Wonders (alphabetical per city)
Spoiler :
Palenque:
-- CN Tower
-- Cristo Redentor
-- Eiffel Tower
-- Forbidden Palace
-- Leaning Tower of Pisa
-- Machu Picchu
-- Neuschwanstein
-- Notre Dame
-- Oracle
-- Sistine Chapel
-- Stonehenge

Tikal:
-- Big Ben
-- Hanging Gardens
-- Petra!
-- Sydney Oprea House

Chichen Itza:
-- Broadway
-- Chichen Itza


T207 Screenshot (i.e. same turn as the vote)
Sheesh. So many spoilers in this screenshot. Hope someone tunes into the Let's Play anyway!
Dude, I'm excited to watch it. My game was very different than what you so far have posted. I'm just very interested in how ppl make decisions and how differently I play.
 
Diplo victory turn 277. Looks like I'm last. Kinda clueless how it's even possible to do this over 100 turns earlier unless you are warlike and get a very quick Diplo vote somehow. But that may be beyond my level of comprehension.

Had a far reaching empire and tried to be very peaceful. Don't usually play King so am happy to just get it done, as 2 of the C/S were taken by AI civs. I built the Forbidden Palace and had enough votes to get my religion and ideology in place, or I never would have even gotten it done this fast. Was 2nd vote.
 

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T168 Diplo Victory

Went for a one-city rush to Theology in order to trigger the first long-count GP. This led to my first great scientist on T42. While I think this was very worth it science-wise, it limited my scout builds and set my exploration back quite a bit. This caught up to me when I hit printing around turn T91 and still hadn’t discovered the Inca and Brazil. I had used a long-count bonus to get a Great Admiral, but sent him around the continent to the east, not knowing it was empty.

The other thing that hurt about not triggering the congress was it made mute my decision to get Printing before Astronomy. I had two monster cities that could have quickly built observatories had I beelined them. As it turned out, I still researched Astronomy before the congress triggered (T98), so tech order could easily have been reversed.

Regardless of the Congress, it looks like I still hit Telecomm (T148) a few turns later than the top times, so that’s something I’ll look to improve.

The most enjoyable part of this game was the Petra city i founded to the west. Its production was on par with that of the capital for most of the game.

Capital BO - scout, worker, pyramid, granary, GL(26), NC(32), atlat, scout, ToA(42), settler…
Techs - mining, pottery, writing, calendar, philosophy, D&P, theology
Policies - full Tradition with Aristocracy first, 2 Patronage, Rationalism, Freedom to Suffrage, finish Rationalism
Pantheon - Monument to the Gods
Religion - pagodas, tithe, religious community, religious texts. Got the religion so late I only built one pagoda before I began saving faith for GP’s.
 

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First video is uploaded. Plan on uploading one per day - the first three (including this one) should be posted in the early afternoon GMT, but the final four will be closer to midnight.

Link to the YouTube playlist is at the end of the post, and I'll edit this list when videos are posted. Enjoy! (edit: apologies for briefly yelling into the mic about 37 seconds into the first video.)
* 1) TSG 249 - Turns 0-45, Exquisite Opening
* 2) TSG 249 - Turns 45-67, The Recovery Begins!
* 3) TSG 249 - Turns 67-95, Wonders & Development
* 4) TSG 249 - Turns 95-122, Mercenary Army vs. Barbarians
* 5) TSG 249 - Turns 122-140, Managing the World Congress
* 6) TSG 249 - Turns 140-172, Ideological Plans
* 7) TSG 249 - Turns 172-208, Diplomatic Victory!

Series complete - the classic small order, no rationalism, wonder spamming diplomatic victory strategy!

 
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